Newbie cable damascus

[Emil]

Hello everyone, am new to this forum (and Knife making) so I figured I would post a pic and hopefully get some feed back. This is my second attempt at cable damascus, what do you think?

[Doug Lester]

I can't tell from the picture that you've posted but it seems that you have some pitting or maybe some inclusions or cold shuts. A close-up of those spots near the back of the blade would help us tell better. Don't feel bad if they are, cable is not the easiest thing to weld up.

Overall, the shape of the blade is well done and the concept of the handle is interesting but I think that I would have mounted the blade higer on the handle to where the spine is even with the back of the guard. The basic craftsmanship looks good.

Doug

[Ray Rogers]

Cable can be a real challenge, as Doug said, but you seem to be on the right track. As for the handle design, my suggestion is to take the knife out and put it to work. Work it hard. After that, you'll know exactly what is right about the handle and what might possibly be wrong.

Welcome to the forums! We look forward to seeing more of your work .....

[Emil]

Thanks for the feed back, you are right the welding is not 100% I think I was working it a bit on the cold side. My charcoal forge struggles to reach welding temp, and then there are cold spots I will have to build a propane one. Speaking of that if I wanted to weld alot would a single burner forge made from a bucket do the trick or would I be better off with two burners?

[Geno]

First Welcome.
Pitting can come from etching too long too.
CCIV has a video on making cable damascus that could take you thru a lot of this "learning curve" stuff.
Gas is more effitient and heats quicker. Mine is a two burner.
If you need help with cable damascus, e mail me, I'll help if I can.
If you want to see my cable damascus, visit centercross.com, it's a little different than most.
Looks like you put a lot of work into it and I like your style.
The handle symetry has been pointed out already, and with a little guidance you are going to get better quickly.
I started with cable and made a bunch of mistakes because there were no teachers back then to speak of. After a few hundred blades, anyone can learn, but with technology today we don't have to invent the wheel over and over.
Let me know how I can help.
God bless,
Geno

[ranger1]

Welcome to the fold.
Some good advice has been given. Both Ray and Geno have been around for a while now. Take advantage of all they are willing to offer. You can't get better help.

[Ray Rogers]

As for forge welding, a single burner of the correct size in a forge body of the correct size and with sufficient insulation can work just fine. For forges that have more volume than they really need or maybe not as well insulated more and/or larger burners can be used to get to welding temperatures easily. Both ways will work but a design that matches the size of the forge and the size/number/and type of burners used will obviously be more efficient.

Figure out what size billet you expect to weld and build the forge to fit. Use the Search feature to locate forge building tips, visit our websites (many of us have illustrated forge building tips), check out the forge building parts available from Darrin Ellis, etc. Don't get too carried away on the first forge you build. The body is the easy part, the burners are usually the expensive part. Do a good job on the burners and you can use them again later if you decide you need a larger/different/better forge. No matter what burner you decide to use, build the forge in a thin steel shell like a stove pipe for instance and line it with Kaowool (or equivalent). That's dirt cheap and works very well. After you figure out what you like in a propane forge you can start thinking about casting a forge body but most guys are perfectly happy with the wool forges ....

[Doug Lester]

My heat treating forge is built with a mailbox as a shell. As Ray said, like with a ceramic insulating matting like Keowool then cover that with a thin shell of refractory such as bubble alumina. Go to Ellis Custom Knife Works an take a look at their blown burners for an example of what they consist of. They also feature a photo line-up of gas forges others have built. Zoeller Forge also has examples and plans for gas forges. All they are is an air line with a gas line connection going into it. It has a gate valve to adjust the air flow and a ball valve and a needle valve on the gas connection. The ball valve serves as an emergency shut off and the needle valve adjusts the gas flow.

You will need a continuous flow air blower that pushes about 60 cfpm air or maybe a little more. Then you will need the gas hose, regulator and connector for the propane tank. As far as size goes. the mail box is a the large size. It has three layers in insulating matting in it, mainly to reduce the volume of the fire box. The interior dimention are 5X7X18" and with one blown burner I can run it between 1650 degrees to something over 2000 degrees. My pyrometer max's out at 2000.

There are those who can also get venturi fired forges up to welding temperature too but their a little more demanding to get set up and run. With proper fire tending you could still forge weld with the charcoal. It's much more demanding and less clean than a gas forge but you've proven that it can be done.

Doug

[Emil]

I visited Darren Ellis' sight and got some plans from Indian George for a forced air design that is simple enough, had a few questions though: The burner he describes is made from 1 1/2" pipe and has a 1/4 " gas inlet which is capped with an 1/8" hole drilled through the cap, the plans note that the size of the hole will vary depending on your altitude, I live in KY so wouldn't think this a problem, is there more science here that I should look into? Also his plans don't include a burner flare would I need one to get the flame right and prevent the end of the burner from melting? And I've seen some idle circuits at Zoller Forge would it be worth the trouble to built one for a small forge, how much fuel do these things go through in a day?

Thanks for all the help you guys are great!

[Ray Rogers]

You'll just have to experiment with the hole size but I imagine it will be fine as specified. That's one of the things I like about the other forced air burners Ellis sells. I call them Claiborne burners because Ron Claiborne was the first to introduce me to these burners. They don't have a hole like that 1/8" hole, none needed, and no flare either. You can use a flare to protect your burner tube but then you just burn up the flare. My burner tubes are merely 1" pipe nipples - burn up all you want and replace them every year or so.

As for propane use, there are just too many variables to make any predictions about that for a forge you haven't even built yet. But, I can say my large forge with two 1" forced air burners will use 100 pounds of propane in 20 hours of continuous running at welding temps .....

[Doug Lester]

The brass nipple that injects the propane into the burner thruogh a plug in a T-union has not cap on it and everything burns fine in my forges. I guess the hole that is mentioned would excellerate the gas stream as it enters the air flow but I do well without it. On the burner tube that enters the forge. I cut a hole in the ceramic insulation large enough to pack refractory around it to form a hard tube that joins with in refractory shell inside my forge. The injection pipe is contained within it. You don't want it to extend into the fire chamber or it will heat up and you'll have combustion within the burner tube..

Doug

[Crex]

It's all a matter of ratios and fine tuning. The science has been done, just have to apply with a modicum of common sense and be willing to work out the tuning part.
My welding forge is a verticle with one 1" venturi burner (no noisy blower fan), flare is cast-in-place of Satanite/ITC 100, nozzle/jet/orfice is 1/4" copper tubing crimped to .030" (very simple). Reaches welding heat in 5 - 6 min. and uses 20#s Lp in two days of welding (not continuous operation....breaks and lunch). I do not forge weld all the time, not much fun without a press or power hammer, but I do use this forge quite a bit. It has never embarassed me when doing a demo (performs very well). Do have to watch freeze-up with small BBQ tanks, so set in tub of water.
Draw backs: Does not idle well on low end, not the best for heat treating, easy to lose/drop work into bottom of forge (get it out quick or might as well forget about it being a knife).
Pluses: No high dollar torch, flare, or forge...all homemade from scrap/scrounged material. Can pull and use same torch assembly (torch-hose-valves-regulator) in a single burner horizontal forge as well, which has a smaller interior and allows for better low end heat control.
Biggest expenses: insulation, coatings, regulator, and needle valve.
Requires basic shop skills and tools.

[Emil]

Thanks for the tip about the propane tank in water, it would have take me a long time to figure that out Speaking of Hydraulic presses I was looking a a 20 ton air over Hydraulic press at harbor freight with some alterations I think it will work.......is 20 ton enough for pressing Damascus? Starting my forge this weekend, I will post some pics when I have it running thanks for all the advice everyone!

These are some horse shoeing rasp blades I started Saturday,...for your entertainment! critiques welcome

[Ray Rogers]

My hydraulic press is set for 25 tons so 20 tons would be fine as long as you don't get carried away trying to work too large a billet.

I know that a couple of guys have experimented with those Harbor freight presses and have reported some limited success. The big problem isn't the tonnage, it's the speed and the amount of space available. Those presses aren't designed to accommodate 4" of dies plus the thickness of your billet. If you solved that problem you also need to be sure that the press can move fast enough. I don't know an effective way to tell you how fast it needs to go but it's quick. The press has to squash your steel before the billet loses too much heat and before your dies gain too much heat. I can say that my press moves a bit faster than a log splitter if you've ever used one of those. And, it has to be able to change direction almost instantly, otherwise too much heat sinks into your dies and/or the press itself. Ask me how I know that a hot 7 pound billet can quickly soften and distort 5/8" thick steel used in a die ....

[Geno]

I use a two burner, air fed, propane with two .035" mig welding tips to port the gas thru.
Single burner needs hole twice as big, generally speaking, of corse.
The 100 lb. bottles of propane work much better to deliver even pressure.
The floating of the cans is a pain, but sometimes needed.
I don't flair any tips, nor do I melt them, I use the air gate and gas pressure to control the flame I want. The swirl should be in the middle like a tornado.
Hot spots are why I use 2 burners, more even heat and more work done.
This 2 burner system is for a 2 foot long shell for big billets, heat treating,etc... the nest is 6" accross and I work 2 or 3 billets at a time.
I have a hydrolic vice built into the back of the forge so I can twist my cable while it is getting hotter, not colder like the rest.
My rule for any welding is to start clean and stay clean.
If cable is not solid before you start forging it, it tends to untwist on you, plus pit, or leave inclusions in the steel.
In other words I ring it like a Hot wash rag before I turn it into steel, then add......
My press is an old muffler bender, modified.
12 gallons a minute will give your ram the speed and power. More GPM means a new pump...
Air over oil will be too slow. As stated already, it needs to return as fast to retain all the heat in the billet, not the dies.
I use plain carbon steel for all my dies.
Heat treated dies give up in time too, just easier to keep clean.
That KIND of repeated heating kills any steels H/Treat eventually.
I use refractory plaster instead of fiber because I forge for long periods and once hot, I can weld with 4 lbs of gas pretty much all day. Most use twice that. Fiber won't hold heat.
I paid a lot FOR that heat and want to use it ALL.
A slow press is very costly to run BTW. too much heating and not enough work getting done.

Leg powered treddle hammers were popular in the day too, look into them.
I think Bob Warner has one on his site. You control the speed and power per stroke.
Rambled quite a bit so I'll quit. Hollar if I can help.
God bless us all.
Geno