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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 07-03-2016, 03:45 PM
504state 504state is offline
 
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Newbie questions

Hi guys, great forum! I am very new. I have made 3 knives so far with 1080. They were basically made as a result of practicing grind lines. I did temper in home oven at 400 for two two cycles. (Heat for 2 hours, let cool at room temperature and heat another two hours I read it could be done this way, may be wrong) it is my understanding you do not need to anneal 1080, is this right? I also just bought some 1095 and was wondering if I treat it the same as 1080? I am researching a forge right now so will have the means to do a proper heat treat soon.
Bare with me and thanks!!
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  #2  
Old 07-03-2016, 05:02 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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You said you tempered at 400 and you said you don't have a forge so some info is missing here. How did you do your heat treatment?

For 1080 tempering at 400F for one hour is sufficient. If you want to do that cycle twice that's OK too.

The heat treat process for 1095 is basically the same as 1080 but whereas 1080 can be quenched in just about any oil except motor oil 1095 requires a professional fast quenching oil if you want to get your money's worth out of it.

You desperately need to get into the Chat Room tonight whether you know it or not. Read the Sticky thread about the Chat Room at the top of the forum or the thread inviting you to the Chat Room just a couple down from this thread and figure out how to get there. Hope you can make it ....


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  #3  
Old 07-03-2016, 06:52 PM
504state 504state is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
You said you tempered at 400 and you said you don't have a forge so some info is missing here. How did you do your heat treatment?

For 1080 tempering at 400F for one hour is sufficient. If you want to do that cycle twice that's OK too.

The heat treat process for 1095 is basically the same as 1080 but whereas 1080 can be quenched in just about any oil except motor oil 1095 requires a professional fast quenching oil if you want to get your money's worth out of it.

You desperately need to get into the Chat Room tonight whether you know it or not. Read the Sticky thread about the Chat Room at the top of the forum or the thread inviting you to the Chat Room just a couple down from this thread and figure out how to get there. Hope you can make it ....
I'm at work tonight but will be there for sure next week! Thanks! All I did was put it in my home oven at 400.
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  #4  
Old 07-03-2016, 06:56 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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QUOTE: All I did was put it in my home oven at 400

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. Bad news is, you haven't even come close to making a knife yet. Good news is, we can fix that ....


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  #5  
Old 07-04-2016, 02:39 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Yep, you've left out a step. Before you can temper a blade you must first harden it. But as Ray said, all is not lost. You've done nothing that can't be corrected once you get a forge up and running.

I would also recommend that you stick with the 1080 steel or right now and learn it. I also recommend, though others might disagree, that you not heat treat 1095 with a forge. You could put too much carbon into solution when you austenize the steel (something that has to be done before quenching to harden the steel) and cause problems down the line. Stick with steels that have 0.85% carbon in them or less.

Try goggling heat treating knives and see what comes up. You could also try reading Steel Metallurgy for the Non-Mettalurgist. It's a little pricey but it gives a lot of information that you seem not to have found yet. It's written by John Verhoeven and is published by ASM International. I got my copy from Amazon but any book store should be able to order it for you.

Doug


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  #6  
Old 07-04-2016, 05:47 AM
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Welcome 504, You've come to a good place for info and guidance. Just pace yourself, read a lot more, ingest the info, think it over before you get too deep into bad habits and get poor results. I know it's hard not to jump right into the deep water, but there are a lot of serious obstacles down there that will cause you to fail until you fully understand cause and effect.

I suggest you also fill out your profile and let us know where you are located. You might be right around the corner from an accomplished knifemaker. Whether a stock removealist or smith, you can learn basics faster and get headed in the right direction from the start.

I wonder, as Doug has, did you perform any type of hardening cycle prior to the 400 deg. tempering cycles?
I think you will find regular old canola oil will give you the best results with the steels Doug mentioned. Just prewarm to 120 deg (candy thermometer). Lot more going on than meets the eye.


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  #7  
Old 07-04-2016, 07:14 PM
504state 504state is offline
 
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Thanks guys! I popped in the chat room last night and said hello. Learned right away I skipped a step and my thinking was backwards. Today I made a jerry rigged forge and played around with some scrap. Took me a little while to get it where it would heat as evenly as possible but it will work for now I think. I basically took my cast iron fire pit and drilled a hole in the center, attached some pipe and taped a fitting to a hair dryer and screwed it on. I have tons of canola oil so that's good. I also have tons of "creamy vegatable shortning for frying potatoes in but doubt we could even find out what that really is. I put the steel in and checked it with a magnet once it started turning orange and got it non magnetic, left it for a few seconds then quenched it. Assuming I did it correctly I could have then began the tempering process correct?
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Old 07-04-2016, 07:25 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Assuming you did it correctly then you would start the tempering process. But, you know what assuming does.....


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Old 07-04-2016, 07:45 PM
504state 504state is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
Assuming you did it correctly then you would start the tempering process. But, you know what assuming does.....
Lol yes I do. Every screw up is a learning experience at least. Everything SEEMS ok. I got pretty even heat. i got it orange and it was still magnetic, put it back for 10 seconds and it wasn't. I don't know if that overheated it or not. How would one check to see if done properly? It didn't warp so that's a plus
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Old 07-04-2016, 09:53 PM
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Quick test to see if you got even close to the hardness you need to start tempering from it to skate a file across the edge of the blades. If the file bites at all your still too soft. If the file skates across and only knocks off the fire scale your good to start tempering.

If you haven't already, you need to start keeping good notes. Lots of good notes! Repeatability is the goal of the day.

Erik
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Old 07-05-2016, 04:18 AM
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I would recommend taking a piece of that same steel, do the same heat and quench procedure as you did on the blade, put about an inch in a vice and see if you can snap it like a piece of glass. If your heat treat is correct it should snap easily and the end grain should look like very fine velvet not coarse like cornbread or sand. It should not bend, but break. If this is successful then proceed with the tempering.

Wash the tempered blade in soapy water then you can soak the scale off the blade in warmed white vinegar. Just let soak for couple of hours then test with a wire brush. If it doesn't come off easily continue to let soak and test until it does. This will save you on belts and file work .... scale is hard on these.


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  #12  
Old 07-05-2016, 08:40 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 504state View Post
Lol yes I do. Every screw up is a learning experience at least. Everything SEEMS ok. I got pretty even heat. i got it orange and it was still magnetic, put it back for 10 seconds and it wasn't. I don't know if that overheated it or not. How would one check to see if done properly? It didn't warp so that's a plus
If that's how it went then I'd say you probably got that part about right. I'd also say if that's exactly how it happened then you were incredibly lucky. It would be more common to check repeatedly as the steel heats up to catch the point where it goes non-mag. You must catch it on the way up, can't go past and try to catch it on the way back down.

Once you catch non-mag then a few seconds more in the heat (as you did) and immediately into the warm canola oil (about 100F warm). As soon as the blade has cooled to the point where it is warm to the touch then wipe off the oil and immediately into the tempering oven. One or two one hour tempering cycles and you are ready to test the blade to see if it worked or not ....


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  #13  
Old 07-05-2016, 12:08 PM
504state 504state is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
If that's how it went then I'd say you probably got that part about right. I'd also say if that's exactly how it happened then you were incredibly lucky. It would be more common to check repeatedly as the steel heats up to catch the point where it goes non-mag. You must catch it on the way up, can't go past and try to catch it on the way back down.

Once you catch non-mag then a few seconds more in the heat (as you did) and immediately into the warm canola oil (about 100F warm). As soon as the blade has cooled to the point where it is warm to the touch then wipe off the oil and immediately into the tempering oven. One or two one hour tempering cycles and you are ready to test the blade to see if it worked or not ....
It took many tries on different pieces of scrap I cut to roughly look like knives. I'm gonna try the vice trick. Heating evenly is the biggest challenge. I do it spine down into the coals. Is that ok?
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  #14  
Old 07-05-2016, 12:49 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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QUOTE: It took many tries on different pieces of scrap...

"Scrap". Does that mean scrap pieces of 1080 or just some steel you found laying around?

Spine down sounds like it might be a good way to get the edge to the right temp but it would probably overheat the spine. I can't say for sure as I only tried coals one time - that's all it took to tell me that you really have to work at learning to use coal as it isn't as simple as one would think. Propane is much easier to control and therefore easier to get consistent results. As someone said in an earlier post, it's all about consistency and repeatability ...


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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 07-05-2016 at 12:56 PM.
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  #15  
Old 07-05-2016, 06:56 PM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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Using coal can be tricky to heat treat a blade. A mellow fire helps. It's best to flip and move the blade around gently to get an even heat. Uneven heating, even if it's at the right temp during quench, can cause the blade to warp. Be real careful not to over heat the tip, that is the most vulnerable part.
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