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Heat Treating and Metallurgy Discussion of heat treatment and metallurgy in knife making. |
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#31
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The only true advantage that one has when forging is changing the shape of the steel to accommodate a proper blade profile. An extreme example would be forging a ball bearing into a blade or making certain Damascus patterns.
As far as steels and the proper heat treat, you can contact the manufacture. They will be able to tell you what steps are needed. Just remember, the more complex the alloy the more difficult the heat treat to get right. |
#32
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There are those who claim that forging bends the grain of the steel where stock removal cuts it. That would make sense if you were dealing with wood but your not. The steel grains reform each time they convert from one phase to another.
Most steels that are use for forging heat treat with not a lot of difference between alloys. You can heat steels that have 0.75% carbon just a little hotter than steels that are above 0.90%. High carbon high alloy steels that form a lot of carbides my need to be soaked at around 1475? for 10-15 minutes. Steels lower in carbon generally need to be tempered at a lower temperature that a higher carbon steel but even there that would depend on the use the knife is intended for. One thing about going by company data is that they are dealing with steel sample greater that 1". Things get thrown off with knife thicknesses, especially with the simple steels. If you get into the range of air quenching steels things do start to change. Again depending on the amount of particular alloying elements. You might find yourself having to do a pre-austinization soak followed buy a 30-60 minute soak at around 1800?. Air quenching steels cannot be normalized and you have to anneal them to soften them. Doug __________________ If you're not making mistakes then you're not trying hard enough |
#33
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Doug, thanks for posting that reminder about steel grain. I have heard many times, even very lately, from knife makers and knife connoisseurs that grain direction is very important when laying out the pattern, or forging the billet. For the life of me, I never understood this, because like you said, I always thought grains were not oriented in steel like they are in wood, and any "orientation" they may have gets erased during austenitization.
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#34
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Quote:
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#35
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Hey guys, is the tempering process the same for all steels? I mean on air hardening, oil hardening and water hardening steels. I think the little difference is in temperature, right?
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#36
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Yes, the process is the same, though differing steels require different temperatures, depending on the intended use. Some (most?) steels require 2 or 3 tempering cycles also.
__________________ A good friend told me one time about forging "What is there not to like, you get to break all the rules you were told as a kid, don't play with that it is sharp, don't play with fire, and don't beat on that" Wade Holloway See some of my work. |
#37
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And all kinds of steel are tempered in water, right? Jim did not wrote this information in his book.
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#38
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I have never heard of steel being tempered in water. You could temper in molten salts or oil but water is not capable of holding the temperature that is needed because those temperatures will be above the boiling point. The safest thing to temper in is hot air as in an oven.
You might be confusing tempering in air with quenching in water between tempering cycles. I don't like the idea of exposing the steel to those kinds of stresses and prefer to cool my blades between cycles in ambient air. Doug __________________ If you're not making mistakes then you're not trying hard enough Last edited by Doug Lester; 12-14-2014 at 05:47 PM. Reason: change temper in water to temper in air |
#39
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I think you might want to read this....
http://www.cashenblades.com/heattreatment.html __________________ A good friend told me one time about forging "What is there not to like, you get to break all the rules you were told as a kid, don't play with that it is sharp, don't play with fire, and don't beat on that" Wade Holloway See some of my work. |
#40
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Another good source of basic info on various heat treating methods can be found here. Sorry I haven't figured out how to do links but go to Knifedogs.com > Knife Making Area > Heat Treating Forum > a sticky on the top of the list Heat treating Tool Box. This was also put together by Kevin Cashen to help new people get their heads around heat treating a bit. It's a bit more in depth than the link that George provided.
My advice is that you print out the subjects found there. Doug __________________ If you're not making mistakes then you're not trying hard enough |
#41
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Thanks for that Doug. Here's a direct link.
__________________ A good friend told me one time about forging "What is there not to like, you get to break all the rules you were told as a kid, don't play with that it is sharp, don't play with fire, and don't beat on that" Wade Holloway See some of my work. |
#42
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Thanks for linking it.
Doug __________________ If you're not making mistakes then you're not trying hard enough |
#43
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Can every steel temper in oven?
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#44
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If you are meaning a kitchen oven or toaster oven then the answer, in the broadest terms, is no. Some of the complex tool steels and stainless steels may need a bit more heat than a kitchen oven will put out. As a practical matter, any steel that would be used to forge blades from and the majority that would be used for stock removal will be able to be tempered in an oven. We won't even get into special processes such as austempering.
Doug __________________ If you're not making mistakes then you're not trying hard enough |
#45
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I have been reading Jim's book these last few days. Jim wrote that many steels can harden using oil, but is that the same for tempering? If you use oil hardening blade can you quench them in same medium to add extra toughness?
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Tags |
5160, 550, blade, blades, dagger, edge, forge, forging, grinding, handle, heat, help., how to, kitchen knife, knife, knife making, knives, made, make, making, materials, micarta, mirror, post, steel |
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