Kit Knives on the Custom market...what do you think?

[Ed Caffrey]

With the poliferation of knife kits that are currently available, it seems that some folks are thinking of themselves as bona fide knifemakers. As I write this I'm on the verge of boiling over. Today, I was browsing around the web, and came across a site from a maker I had never heard of before. The information that came up on the search engine was..... "Collectable Custom Folders". When I visited the site, it was obvious that ALL of the knives on the site were "kit" knives!! There were a couple with pearl slabs, but most were nothing more than kit knives with some surface decoration.

What really got me ticked off was that the individual has the odasitiy to have his name etched on the blades!

This brings me to another point. If there are people out there that are scamming the public with kit knives that are advertised as custom, how does that make those of us who truely do make the whole knives from scratch, look in the publics' eye? Let's say that someone purchases one of these knives (they were priced starting at $350), and then later finds that they were suckered into purchasing a kit knife.............. now what do you suppose that individual is going to think the next time someone introduces themself as a "knifemaker"?

I wrote this person a pretty harsh email, chewing him out pretty hard for misrepresenting what he is advertising, we'll see if he responds. I started to post who it is, but that would leave too much room for the person to get nasty if they chose to do so.

As I sit here and think about this, the madder I get. I don't see anyway to prevent someone from doing this sort of thing, and I know DDR is selling a lot of his kits...........but this sort of thing hurts the whole knifemaking community.

What are your thoughts??

[John Frankl]

I'm with you, Ed. Although I think it is great that DDR is providing the kits to the public, just as Bob E. and many others have, it does open the door for unscrupulous individuals to cheat an uneducated public. The first and easiest solution is for all kit knives to be permanently marked by their maker/manufacturer. If a blade has, for example, "Engnath" stamped on the ricasso, it will be fairly difficult for Bob Jones or Tom Smith to claim that he made the knife from scratch. Just a thought off the top of my head, but I still am upset that there are individuals out there with equally little pride and honesty.

John

[Taz575]

Ed, I feel the same way as you do. If someone wants me to make them a folder, I point them towards the kits, and they know its a kit, and i am merely assembling, fine tuning if needed, etc. I make sure they know they are kits, and they know what work I am doing on the knife (polish blade, shape handle, etc).

Some people get the kits, and then use them as a template, and its very difficult to prove that they are the kits, and not one COPIED directly from the kit. i am assuming these kits r copyrighted somewhere, and they are prob copying the designs illegally.

This happens a lot. And its hard to expose them. I saw kits being sold on Ebay, the fixed blade and folder kits, and people were saying they were custom makers. I also saw one know maker outright and blatantly COPY several fixed blade designs, and then had one of "his" designs made in a collab with another company. What BS. Get some pencil and paper and draw up your own, or at least make something distinctive about it. I know many times i have seen a knife that i recognize from a supply catalog, yet they are bragging on how good the steel quality is, etc. The serrations are even the same as the kit's, yet they say they made the blade from "high quality 440C" steel.

I made a few kits when i was starting off, and was disgusted with the quality of the steel and HT, so i started making my own. I sold a few kits, but told everyone up front that they were kits and i was merely assembling them. They were fine with it, and I think i charged materials plus like $10 for labor. lol.


$350???? what a rip off. I can sell an 11" blade, S30V bowie for that much. And i do all of the work except the HT, which goes to Bos. $350 for assembling a kit, and putting a handle on it? Man, talk about being lazy. Where is this URL so I can give this guy a piece of my mind???

[BrianT]

Ed

This is very disturbing news. If this person replies to your email, please fill us in on his "justification" for doing what he is. I too am becomming angry as I think about this. As I think of the time that I have spent at the forge pounding out a blade, all the efforts spent grinding heat treating, making and mating components for the best fit possible, etc, and there are people out there who are placing handles on blades and calling them custom is outrageous.

A solution is difficult though. I would like to ask this person (as a potential customer) a few questions, and see if they even know anything about making knives. Reporting this person to the Better Bussiness Bureau for misrepresenting his product might be one solution, but what about all the rest of them?

Brian

[Tom Ferry]

I also agree with you Ed. I had a friend who is also a collector buy a real nice pearl handled folder at a local show two aisles away from my table. He was real happy about the purchase until we pointed out that it was a kit knife. The bad side was this maker was also claiming to have made the whole knife. It was real obvious when his grinds on his fixed blades were way off and the fit and finish sucked but the folder was almost flawless.
I have no problem with a maker using and selling kits as long as they are honest about what the knife is but to take a $10-$30 kit knife and sell it in the price range of true customs or handmade knives is ridiculous.
In my opinion there is only one solution to this ongoing problem and that is to get the kit manufacturers to mark their blades and knives. The issue I see with this though is that kit knife sales will drop off and thats not in the manufacturers interest but at least this will keep honest people honest.
Kit knives are definetly a bonus to the knifeworld in the aspect of a maker starting out or anybody wanting to get a taste of knifemaking. However it would be in the knife communities best interest if the knives were marked. Just my opinion.

[KNAdmin]

What's wrong with inviting this person to join us? Perhaps he or she only needs to learn what's expected of him or her. They may not have the advantage of this type of professional association to learn from, as we do. If the first time they're ever contacted professionally is basically to chew their a$$, then how does that weigh against what they've done wrong, reletive to their degree of respect for the expectations placed upon them within this industry?

As a Mastersmith. I don't care if a person is a kit maker or not, they know what that title means. That moniker alone, enables you to "teach" where others would only be seen as adversarial, because that person will likely listen. It's like the rank of officer in this industry. You can rag a private to the ends of the earth, once you convince them to enlist. However, before that, you'd be talking to a civilian. In that sense, he can still choose whether to listen or not, follow or not.

Ed, I agree with everything you said, technically. You're right, some of these kits are better than many maker's work! I sold 5 to a fellow Mastersmith at the Blade Show, so I understand what impact they're having. But, why fire over the bow of a non-enemy ship, so to speak? If anyone can teach this person, that they'd likely listen to "with some degree of respect", you'd be one of the only guys here with enough title to pull it off.

Am I right, or off in left field here?

Alex

[KandS_KNIVES]

Alex, no disrespect intended, but left field is not far enough. The person in question must of had some contac with the custom market and the ethical way we try to take care of buiness. We all make knives here and I beleive that 99.9% are ethical and honest people. This incident makes us look small and dishonest to the, uneducated, buying public. The person in question has tarnished my reputation, as all the others here. Start marking those kit knives. I mean no disrespect to any fellow maker or you, just my feelings on the matter. Spilled milk!
Ken (wwjd)

[Don Cowles]

It seems to me that most folks are pretty honest about what they are doing/selling. There are some, however, who are not - and they are indeed damaging those who are.

There has been quite a discussion about this very subject on the Knife Collectors List, with several instances being cited of custom knife prices and claims on knives done from kits.

The observation that if kit manufacturers marked their blades, their sales would fall off is, in my opinion, accurate. This is because many (sorry to say) of the people who buy them *do* want to take credit for having made them.

I don't blame the manufacturers for not marking the blades; they are in the business to make money.

On the other hand, when I see a fraud, I feel it is my responsibility as a maker, and to defend my own reputation, to raise great big red flags, and publish the deceiver's name in every venue I can find. I intend to do so.

[Ed Caffrey]

Just got up and check my email.......no response from the individual yet. I'll give him another day and then email again.

I've settled down a bit since last night, and have thought more about the situation.............but I still have zero tolerance for it. Alex, you make a valid point about inviting a person "into the foal", but the question that keeps running through my mind is "Do I want him in the foal?" As Don mentioned, this is a situation that damages all true custom knifemakers. It would be a kin to someone claiming to be from Altlanta Virtual, using your business name to gain customers for web site building........after someone did that to you, would you be willing to trust them?? I think not. I might be wrong, but if the person ever writes me back, I'll know, one way or the other.
I strongly agree with the thoughts of the manufacturer marking kit knives, and the fact that sales would drop as a result only leads me to believe that not marking them encourages this sort of thing. This is the same type of situation that the Guild went through a bunch of years ago.............even though nobody wants to admit it, many members were using Engnath blades on their knives and marking them with their own names. This practice came to a halt, only because Bob passed away. How do I know this? Bob himself told me so.
Kits are kits, are kits, and although the kit quality is outstanding now a days, it is the moral obligation of ANYONE selling a product to represent it in a true and honest fashion. The knifemaking community is unlike any other, in that integrity and honesty are hallmarks of the trade, and any one "maker" who does not follow that premise, damages the entire lot of us.

[Brett Bennett]

I'm in total agreement with most of the sentiments here, although my cynicism prevents me from getting too upset. It doesn't matter what or how you make it. The key is honesty, plain and simple. This individual doesn't deserve to invited in as he is dishonest and must surely know it.

Brett

[fitzo]

Ed, you are 100% correct. There is a vast difference between the terms "custom" and "customized". We all know this, and it doesn't matter whether it's knives, guns, or anything else. Someone altering a kit and selling it as a "custom" made knife is misrepresenting the product, and I would be hard-pressed to just accept the fact that they didn't know the difference.

[PaulD]

As a newbie to knife making and having limited time and resources, I am a knife assembler. I am not a newbie to life or ethics.

My first sold knives were represented as assembled, in fact the customer chose the blades and handle material right out of the catalog.

Any one who takes anothers work and calls it their own is the lowest form of life, right up there with murder and rape. I can only hope that time wounds all heels

[KNAdmin]

In my opinion, in large part the knife industry is to blame. That is, the use of the word "custom" in reference to something being "handmade" is wrong! Custom does not mean "hand made", not in any dictionary defining the English language. If we're going to apply terms in ways that the language doesn't support, then misrepresentation will always be subject to the readers understanding, therefore biased.

What I saw, beyond the fact that I own a kit company, was that this person had advertised their work as "Custom Collectable Folders" and had signed the work. According to my understanding of the English language, the man or woman is right, if that's all they said. This part about signing the work is something that there's no standardization at all at in this business. At best, it's a weak gentleman's agreement. The ABS and KMG have certain established guidelines for their members, but outside of those memberships, it really the burden of education, which was my original point.

What I see, is everyone assuming that everyone else (with a knife for sale) knows what you all know about the trade, which is false.

Ed, your example using AtlantaVirtual.com is not accurate. If someone made a site and signed our name on it without consent, it would be violation of trademark law, their unauthorized use of our brand endorsement. If they stole our pages and put their name on them as author, it would constitute a copyright infringement. If we "sold" them the blank templates, then they did "surface decoration" and signed and resold them (let's say for $350), they would be completely within their legal rights to do so. Read the Microsoft FrontPage ####### agreement if you don't believe me. We have the same ####### in effect to our resellers at AV.

Alex

[blademan]

ED! I'am with you. However think about this.

I've been making liner locks for years, and have come up with
some pretty good designs, but it seems like everytime I come
up with a good design Folders, Fixed Blades, Lock Backs etc

Somebody comes along and markets it as a kit knife, and I'am
sure I'ts happen to a lot knifemakers out their,

So how do you stop something like that? You Can't, you just
have to help your clients understand who are the good and
honest makers are, and who the kit makers are.

We ARE the ones to keep it HONEST at all Cost
Help your clients stay informed and help THEM and they will be repeats.

[DC KNIVES]

I have to take the middle of the road approach on this.I started out customizing production knives and making kit knives almost 10 years ago.I sold many but was always upfront as to the origin.After about a year I started making my own blades.The key point is honesty.As a member of the FKA, I am not allowed to sell at a show any blade I didn't make.The Guild Show last year had members put out forms stating who did what on their knives.While this is all good to inspire buyer confidence, it does little to prevent the dishonest person from lying.That's up to the knifemakers to police their own.Some of these kit makers will hopefully become knifemakers such as myself and many others and should be pointed in the right direction.Some will lose interest, and for the dishonest ones, we can weed them out and kick them to the curb.
Alex,I think what you have done with kit knives is to be commended.Marking blades as some have stated will probably cost you customers. No one needs that ,including us.If we are going to live by the high standards we set for ourselves at the CKD,meaning helping new makers and each other then we must make sure that we spread the word about dealing honestly with customers.We all have been to the other guy's forums and seen the crap about deals gone south, but thankfully it is almost nil here.Only due to the quality of people here.

Let's not make this an argument about custom vs handmade, kit vs handmade, forged vs stock removal.Let's just encourage the good and kick the #### out of the dishonest.Just my $.02.Dave