Prices for Finished Kit Knives?

[Al Polkowski]

Well Mr. D, looks like you have personally made yourself the BIG FISH in the LITTLE POND. Congratulations. It really does show your expertise in advertising and sales. Now, to the basics.....can you make a knife??? Oh, you can't?

Hey guys, what gives? We are talking about KIT KNIVES, aren't we.

Deep in your heart you know THIS...........Kit-knives have no appreciable value except to the assembler and maybe the highly, highly, (oh, did I say highly?) UNeducated buyer. This is sorta like Amway, guess who comes out on top in this deal......(hint...it isn't YOU)

This post is not being written by "a whinning knifemaker". (It's funny that the knife-kit designer Guru offers that description.)

"Knife-Kit Put It Together People" pose no threat, whatsoever, to bonifide knifemakers. You've heard of those guys, the ones who actually make the knives they sell. The ones who worked years to build a reputation, invested in state of the art equipment, , earned the right to put their name or mark on a knife, and were accepted into a highly reputable professional Guild.

I guess you guys are thinking of the future of your "craft":

-Will your official title be "Finisher of a knife kit thingy designed and made mostly by someone else but somewhat assembled and embelleshed by me - maybe or maybe not. (put that on your business card)

-Will the masses of you form your own organization titled: "Knife-Kit Put It Together People Guild".

- Your official motto: The knife-kit designer Guru makes them, we finish them -maybe or maybe not.

-Your unofficial motto: "Don't listen to those whinning real knifemakers, we're a new generation"

-Your Guild slogan: There's one born every minute. (referring to the highly, highly (did I say highly?) UNeducated customer.

Your Official Guild prayer: Dear merciful god of all kit thingys, PLEASE help the knife-kit designer Guru release at least one more model next year and stop the Guru from increasing the prices every other week. AND, please convince Taiwan that this IS a legitimate business and please ask them to produce some knock-offs, please. I wish I never got into this. Amen

Now look.....I'm just kidding. You did get a good laugh, didn't you?

Good Luck in your endeavors.

Al P :cool:

[SharpByCoop]

This was like a movie from Hollywood. Initially it sounds plausible and has drama, but then it gets absurd and preposterous. Yes, by the time I finished I was enjoying every word. At that point I knew I would walk out of the theater back into the REAL world...

As long as there is quality that exceeds these from his own work, the custom knifemaker need never be threatened. Keep on keepin' on, Al. So will these guys. Everyone's going to do fine.

Making a couple of bucks, and getting more folks interested in customized/handfinished knives. These customers will continue their education and spending towards other quality pieces, possibly made by you. And having as much fun as one can have in the process. Nothing wrong with that!

Coop

[Osprey Guy]

Al-

You seem to have strong pretty strong feelings against the notion of kit knives...sorry to hear that...really.

If not for these kit knives I never would have even dreamed that I could some day have the required ability to become a knifemaker...heck I didn't know the front end of a screwdriver before taking my first crack at one of these kits. I know the same has been true for a heck of lot other guys.

Darrel and Alex are out to make a buck...true...But try taking either one of them off to the side at a show, and have a real heart-to-heart...you'll quickly learn that they are very much in earnest when they say they hope that these kits will breed a whole new crop of highly skilled knifemakers...Ultimately that wish can only be good for knifemaking in general. They've certainly succeeded in bringing me into the fold...and many, many others who otherwise would never have had this dream.

Can I make a knife?...well as a matter of fact I now can...but I choose not to post until I've made one that knocks MY socks off. I fully expect to have pics posted in a week or so of my latest project...True, it's a DDR2 (by Darrel Ralph)...but the bolsters are mine, the highly carved scales are mine, the very highly carved and fileworked steel spine is mine, the thumbstud is mine, and the sir...the blade is mine! If it weren't for these kits that could never, never have happened!

Do these kits have any appreciable value?....
Hmmmm, now let's see...
They look great, they work great (the action on these kits is kick-ass...maybe you ought to check one out...even a maker of your stature might just be impressed), and I know that more than a few guys feel good about these on the collecting end as well as the making end. I've already sold a number of my knives to serious knife collectors who apparently have arrived at a different assessment of the future value of a very well made kit knife.

If I so chose I'm now certain I could reproduce my "Birds head carving knife"...this time using a blade of my own...perhaps some day I will...but right now I am totally focused on learning to make my own folder from scratch...And I can only hope that it functions as well as any one of my kits knives.

The guys who get their knife education with these kits will someday, among other things, become highly educated custom knife buyers ...perhaps even smart enough to purchase one of yours.


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!


PS. Last I heard, that "little pond" was not so little and is growing by leaps and bounds every day!

[KitCarson]

Dennis,
I have no problem, per se, with kit knives. I'm sure that there are makers that cut their teeth on the numerous fixed blades that have been offered by all the knife supply companies for decades.

The problem I have are the guys that make and sell them as a handmade (or whatever) knife and mark their name on the blade and feeds the customer with a line of deceit . Does it happen? Sure, look at Ebay. Visit some local shows or the flea market.

If a guy is using a kit, whether it is one of the new wonder kits or the older ones that have been out for years, as a stepping stone to learn how to do it, I can live with that. If he is using them to build up some dollars to invest in equipment to be able to build his own knives, I can live with that, as long as no deceit in involved.

In this sometimes sad world we live in there will be many, many who have the sole purpose of greed and deceit and will continue to make and knock these kits together and sell to unaware customers from now on. That is what I have a problem with.

Am I worried about them or whining? No. No reason to.

Are the guys having these kits made worried about the same concerns that I am? Probably not.

Is there a difference between a guys using one of these kits and the guy that buys a $3. knife from BudK, takes it apart and rebuilds it with nicer handles and maybe a little shine and sells it as his own? IMHO, no, but hey, you know what they say about opinions.

[Al Polkowski]

Coop, Osprey Guy

I just couldn't help it. How about that prayer?

Al P.:cool:

[Osprey Guy]

Al-

Sorry, I didn't mean to side-step what is maybe your main issue...my use of the expression "whining knifemakers"...

You're new to these forums otherwise you might have learned that unfortunately, too many bona-fide knife makers do indeed feel threatened by the kits and their makers. As you correctly point out, the ones who are highly skilled should have no reason whatsoever to feel that way. and yet many fail to recognize that.

I have an unbelievable amount of respect for skilled knifemakers and the other artisans who appear in thses forums. And the more I learn everyday, the more I gain in that respect for their abilities. For awhile there in these forums, kit makers were being forced to defend themselves and fight to earn their rightful place in the scheme of things. This was due to the many guys loudly complaining that we were the less than 2nd class citizens of the knifemaking world. It's many of those guys to whom I refer to as "whining knifemakers." Judging from your comments, you are among those who do not have a heck of a lot respect for what we're doing here.

But I have way too much respect for your well-earned stature to accuse you of being a whining knifemaker...


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[KitCarson]

Dennis,
I like that bona-fide knifemaker term you used.
Again, this is just my humble opinion, but there are guys that make knives from scratch (flat bars of knife steel, pieces of titanium, blocks of handle material, do their own grinding, heat treating) that I guess deserve to be called knifemakers, and then there are the guys that make them from parts that just stopped short of hitting the pages of BudK's catalog.

Granted, for the most part they do a great job putting them together, but, ah, never mind. Maybe it's just my advanced age and so many years being around this business that makes me want to express my opinion.

I encourage all the bona-fide kit makers to keep up the good work in their stair steps to becoming a bona-fide knifemaker.

[Al Polkowski]

Dennis,

First, don't assume by the number of my posts that I am new to this or any other forum. That's a mistake.

Second, I am not threatened by kit makers. what I am threatened by is the uneducated customer who is somehow talked into paying $800 for a kit knife. For that price he could get a work of art made by an award winning knifemaker. An heirloom.

Third, Respect? Respect is not an issue here. The issue is procuring the essential guts of a knife, embellishing it in some way, and selling it as hand or benchmade. In many cases (I have seen it), marking a name on it.

Fourth, You have heard people say they can identify a maker of a knife from across a room. It's about style, your style, a style you can never develop with a kit. Your style is just as important as your workmanship.

Fifth, Exactly where is the kit-makers place in the knifemaking scheme of things? You are definitely not 2nd class citizens in the world of knifemaking......because.......you aren't making knives. Isn't that correct?

Why not go FIRST CLASS.........make a few kits, get some equipment, make your own designs, and put the steel to the wheel.

Now....did I whine?

AL P

[Osprey Guy]

Al (and Kit)-

In case you missed it, my last few kitknives have upwards of 100 hrs of embellishment work. When a customer is "talked into" paying the big bucks it's for that work, not the blade. They know where the blade came from because I told 'em!

And if you've been around you know that I've been rapidly gearing my shop up for the past year so that I CAN begin to ease into sole authorship. Believe me, I've spent more than a few hours lately practicing on my KMG...and getting grinding pointers from a wonderful fixed blade maker by the name of Larry Mensch up in PA.

The long-term point of the kits is to get us involved and ease us all the way into knifemaking. As far as I'm concerned, for now, where kitmakers fit into the "scheme of things" has to do with fit and finish, and embellishment...any other claims are BS.

And with this latest turn in this thread we are now beginning to re-hash some very old news. This same exact back and forth has already been through the mill and back again many, many times in the past 1 1/2 years. It's a no win discussion....Either you believe in making room for someone who doesn't "do it all from scratch" or you don't. I think there's room for all, as long as all are honest about what they're making and selling.


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!


PS. Kit- I can't take credit for the "bonafide maker" expression...If you'll check Al's 1st offering here, that was an his expression...I thought it was an interesting term and just tossed it back in the fray.

[Al Polkowski]

Dennis,

You're a good man. I like the way you stick up for yourself and your views without going ballistic.

Kudos and take care,

Al P

[Osprey Guy]

With a nod to the original topic of this thread, I thought I should speak again to the subject of prices.

One of my great pet peeves these days is that the knife world IS in fact turned on it's butt when it comes to the subject of pricing. Everytime I see one of those "bonafide makers" charging under $500, or $400, or $300, or heaven help me-$200, for a wonderful, custom, fixed blade or folder, I want to grab them and shake them!

It's the guys who are lacking in the ability to get what they SHOULD be getting for their extraordinary skilled work, who have brought down and are continuing to bring down the knife market's prices.

Prices are all over the #### place and in the end it comes down to a customer paying for what he wants...and more often than not, at a price. Unless you are a well-established, "big name" maker, it's tough for anyone else to stick to anything akin to righteous pricing.

And everyone is fighting over the same small piece of pie. This is really nuts when there's a whole world out there that uses knives every single day. Every time I go "outside the market" I'm offered far more than the "knife market" is typically willing to pay. That's not because of naive customers outside of the knife world (they're just paying what they think the knife is REALLY worth), it's mostly because of, can't-sell-worth-a-#### knifemakers.

When a (previously unskilled-in-the-shop) guy like me can come out of nowhere and in just over a year be commanding $500+ on average (for a well embellished kit knife), than ALL the knifemakers should be asking "What's wrong with this picture? Why can't I get as much or more than Dennis for my custom knives?"

I'm just getting what my labor and skills are actually worth. Too many of the really, truly skilled and gifted "bonafide makers" (to continue borrowing Al's term) are getting and accepting, what is in effect, less than minimum wage. That's not my fault, that's their's. Shame on them for not doing what it takes to raise their prices...even if that means taking some courses in basic salesmanship!

For me, I truly believe my kitknives are worth every penny my customer's are paying...I know what sort of work went into them.

When I graduate to doing sole authorship....my prices will at the very least double what I'm currently getting! And guess what, before I accept less than deserving pay for my hard work, I'll get what I ask even if it means "going outside the market" on a permanent basis.


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[KNAdmin]

We could have chosen almost anyone as a designer/partner for our knifekit lines. I chose to work with Darrel Ralph from the start, because we felt he was the best in the business for this purpose. For my company's investment money, he was the only logical choice and we're thankful for it every day.

What people think about us, outside our corporation and customers, is totally irrelevant. We're the ones with money on the table. Beyond knife making circles, this is still a business, nothing personal! The job is to put the best products on the table for you guys and this is exactly what we aim for. This includes securing the best designer, as well! Where and how we make them is a production problem, not a concept issue.

Yes, we're proud to say ... Darrel Ralph "is" the GURU of the modern kit. No one gave him that title, he earned it from scratch! Did he not?

We've beat these other arguments into the ground, many times.

"No ... once again for the 100th official time, it is not acceptable to lie about your product to the buyer, I don't care what you do for a living. What you charge ( for anything you do, or make) is never determined by you. That kind of thinking is a myth of the inexperienced. Value is always determined by the buyer, "what it's worth to them to own it in cost!" That has nothing to do with kits ... it's capitalism at its finest! It's about "value exceeding cost!" Learn this simple rule and you, too, can change the world!

Al, you missed our first meeting here ...
That's the one where we all decided that we didn't have to meet any standards or become members of any ruling body, invest $20K in authorized equipment or diplomas to work together in learning, sharing and skill evolvement. I have other boards on this forum that are run differently, where differing degrees of this may apply, but this one is for "this" specific methodology and training system. This one is producing some awesome, viewable results too! Look around, and see with your own eyes. I'll let these guy's work do their talking for them.

-----
Really, though ...
I appreciate all of the big name pros who offer these guys sincere and honest encouragement in their task to learn this art. Yes, we are doing our best to help police our makers who are not following the path of honor and telling stories about the origin of these kits. But, when one "is" honest and still makes money, his work has reason for merit, both his salesmanship and his skills-manship together. Many of you guys are professional names reading this and I think it's very important that you personally understand that you may be very the reason for some of these kit builders becoming inspired into giving this a try, like Tiger Woods is to many future golf stars today. So, when these guys read your inflammatory comments about their work, agressively diluting their pride with your showmanship, it's "you" that better remember something ...
In the enlightened words of a street bum I met once in downtown Atlanta ... (he was drunk at the time)

What will make you laugh, will make you cry!

Boys (kit builders), listen to me ...
"No matter how high you reach in this business, never forget where you came from!" There's always people below you looking up to you. Those guys will be thinking just like you are today.

Alex

[CDS]

Hey Guys,
Do you think we could get one of those flaming message icons over to the side of this thread?

Keep it coming. I am hearing some good stuff!

[SharpByCoop]

Bravo to Alex, Dennis, Kit and Al. Everyone has stirred up the fire a little and come away with just a little more sense.

Kit has seen my work on the forums, and complimented me often. He has no reason to feel threatened.

Al handled my favorite stag DDR1, and handing it back to me complimented me on doing an exceptional job. He meant it.

Dennis always states his case well, and with a professionalism and positive attitude that should be an example to the knifemaking world on how to conduct themselves. Sure, he is the poster boy for self-promotion. Listen and learn.

Alex's remarks are pointed and spot-on.

And to anyone who sells these pieces with a little finery and a mark with no disclosure--I say PUKE ! (Insert icon of merit)

It's Sunday morning. Let's all bow our heads in reverence and pray: "May all our Guru's and Kit builders and Bona-fide Knifemakers be so thankful for all the CRAP that's out there, for without it we wouldn't know how good we have it ourselves!"

I think I'll do some work in my shop today. Maybe continue on either the fixed blade or folder I have underway. The one's with my name on them!

Coop

[Darrel Ralph]

Kit,
Thanks for the good comments and well thought out post.

Al,
I changed my post after thinking about what you had to say.
It now says SOME knife-makers whine. The statement was to general.

Point proved.

Being a knife maker myself I realize that our industry has not grown well over the last years. Knives are looked at in a different respect than they were in the past. Children could carry a knife to school. Just about everyone you knew at one time had a knife. Women had switchblades in there sewing kits! Even the cub scouts that I teach knife basics classes for have to have a card that they carry when the knife is on there person.

Now days the knife is somewhat "not pc".

The focus here is to bring more folks into the fold with the intent of bringing the next person into the fold while providing a quality product so that folks return.
We feel this is one way of re-kindling an interest for the knife, and providing a good basis to start with.
Educating folks about knives and how to build them can help build the industry back up again.

There is nothing like a knife customer who buys one knife (of any kind) that is far from being up to par and never buys another knife. This happens in the knife market every day. I think we have all witnessed this type of situation.
This fact in particular should mean something to all folks involved that are building kits, custom, or any type of knives.

The intent of Knifekits.com is to help folks who want to evolve or "not" to build an acceptable product from the start. This simple truth helps the knife making industry.

My comments about not listening to knife makers or anyone else can be explained very simply.
Why listen to anyone?
Every person has to make there own way in life. I do not condone deceit in any manner. I do however condone making a living, having a hobby, getting an education and most other things in life in the fashion that "you" choose. We all have enough government in our lives dont we?