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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 12-31-2012, 01:53 PM
remist17 remist17 is offline
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Heat Treat questions from a newbee

I completed several knife kits. I feel happy with outcome of the handles and workmanship. I am know looking into buying stock metal and have some questions.

Knife metal... What is the easiest to work with for a new person?
I am not looking to forge knifes, just hand and electrical grind the metal.
The blade metal purchased from online suppliers, do they come ready to work? Do I need to demagnetize the metal?
I am really looking to just make the blade and complete the heat treatment. I found a small toaster oven that i see some people use to complete the final heat treatment.

If anyone could point me in the correct direction I would appreciate it.

Last edited by remist17; 12-31-2012 at 02:01 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-31-2012, 02:58 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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First of all go to KnifeDogs.com Forum > Knife Makers Area > Heat Treating Forum on knifeDogs > sticky: Heat Treating Tool Box and print it out. You might want to book mark it too. This will give the the basics on heat treating blades.

If you want to do your own heat treating then I would stick with some of the simpler steel. Something like 1080 or 1084 is good for the beginner. So is 5160. Something like 1095 or the W series of tool steels are high in carbon and can be a little tricky for the beginner to manage with a gas forge and toaster oven.

Knife maker supply houses can be a little pricey. USA Knife Maker Supply isn't too bad. Alpha Knife Supply and The New Jersey Steel Baron are good suppliers of knife steel. The bars aren't flat ground but you should still be able to lay out your blade blank on them and cut them out. Straighten before hardening, though you will have to straighten after hardening occasionally.

As far as demagnetizing your steels, yes you do, but at the right time and in the right way. That's why I referred you to the Heat Treating Tool Box.

Doug


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  #3  
Old 12-31-2012, 03:46 PM
Imakethings Imakethings is offline
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There are 3 different ones I would suggest for beginning, 1080, 1084, and 1090.

Tracy over at USAknifemaker carries a full knifemaking kit, the steel is annealed, and there are written instructions on how to do the HT included in the kit.

By the way you're talking I'm thinking that you might have an incomplete understanding of the hardening and heat treatment process, if you would like the cliff notes and some links about such I'll be happy to explain. I'm just trying to gauge the general level of your knowledge so I don't over or undershoot.
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:54 PM
WBE WBE is offline
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Listen to Dougs' advice, and stay away from hypereutectoid steels, those above 1084 in carbon, until you get some experience. 1084 will out perform poorly HTed 1995, or 1090. You can also go to Kevin Cashens website and get a great amount of info on the basics of knife steel metalurgy.
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  #5  
Old 01-01-2013, 07:03 PM
remist17 remist17 is offline
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Thanks all;
You are correct in thinking I do not have a clue on the metal heat treat, requirements or what is needed. This is why I started out with the knife kit first. I am now hooked on knife making and want to learn more before I take the next step. I have limited funds so I can not invest in the high dollar forges and items. So I bought the $50 dollar knife book and looking on this site for general knowledge. I am not sure were or how to start.

I see you all made some great suggestions and I thank you for it. I will look at each and print out as much as I can. IF you want to give pointers I appreciate it.
Sorry for the beginner questions.
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  #6  
Old 01-01-2013, 09:45 PM
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ckluftinger ckluftinger is offline
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Don't be sorry for asking. That's what this forum is about. Good luck to you. It's an addictive hobby, as you have already found out. It need not be (very) expensive to get started making your own blades. Just take it slow, and allow yourself to make mistakes. Every mistake makes you a better knife maker - at least that's the theory...


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  #7  
Old 01-02-2013, 02:43 PM
remist17 remist17 is offline
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OK so if anyone still willing to listen....
Another newbee qustions on heat treat process.

From what I read there are several steps required to mke a knife.
Normalizing, Anealig, hardening and tempering.

If I buy knife stock say 1084 material. I need to do all these steps to create a knie blade that will work correct?

From what I read some applications are over 1500 degrees. Far more than what my oven can do

Since I do not have a forge yet, is there someplace I can send the knifes to be heat treated? I was ready fo the tempering portion only.

How do I know what the correct heat levels are for the Normalizing, Anealig, hardening and tempering? Is there a listing of these temps someplace?
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:59 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Most of the blade steel you buy won't need to be annealed. Annealing makes the steel soft enough that you can drill and saw it with minimum effort. Nearly all purchased blade steel comes already annealed.

You may or may not need to normalize, depends on the steel and situation. Some guys always normalize, some never do. What MUST be done is the heating to critical temp (mostly between 1500 - 2000F for most steels we use) and holding for whatever length of time is required for that type of steel, followed by whatever type of quench that steel requires (air, oil, or water in many variations), followed by appropriate tempering (mostly 400 F - 1000 F depending on the steel).

Each steel has a spec sheet and most places that sell blade steel can provide a copy of the specs. Also, there are tons of websites that list the specs, certainly all the steel manufacturers do. alphaknifesupply.com has links to spec sheets for most of the popular steels..

Obviously, you can't handle the high end of those temps in your kitchen oven so, at a minimum you need a forge in order to do your own heat treating. Either build a forge or send your blades out for heat treating. Your decision about what to do here will determine what steel you use for your blade.

If you will send the blade out as it appears you must at this point then consider using 440C stainless to make your blade. When it's ready, you can send it to Texas Knifemakers for HT at a cost of $5 per blade. They will do the HT and the tempering so everything will be complete when the blade is returned to you. From that point, you finish your work on the blade, add the handle and make a sheath if needed....


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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 01-02-2013 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:16 PM
remist17 remist17 is offline
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ok one more question. IF I send out the blades to be treated why do I need to use 440C material. Why not other material? Or is 440C better than anything else?
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  #10  
Old 01-02-2013, 09:19 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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440C was suggested because it is about as inexpensive as stainless can get, it makes very high quality blades, and Texas Knifemakers will HT it for only $5. The reason for the $5 price is that 440C is very easy to HT providing you have the correct equipment - which they do and you don't.

The other steels we normally recommend like 1084 are not processed by very many commercial treaters that specialize in knives. There are a few, but they charge more than $5. Basically, 440C is the simplest, least expensive and easiest steel to get processed if you have to send your blades out. However, you can use any steel you like if you are willing to locate a place that can process it and is willing to accept a single blade (most like batches of 20 or more) ...


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Old 01-02-2013, 10:11 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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If you want to use a carbon steel, like the 1080 or 1084, then you could build your own gas forge. Google up "tin can forge" or "coffee can forge" and you will find examples and plans for forges made from a coffee can or a 1 gallon paint can lined with a ceramic wool and powered by a propane torch. Cut a pass through port on the back side and you could heat treat blades 6-8" long.

The ceramic matting and something to coat it with, like a castable refractory or a high temperature mortar, can be had at High Temperature Tools and Refractory or look up Wayne Coe, I think that he carries it to. The forge will be pretty basic but usable. You can build a better one later.

Doug


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Old 01-03-2013, 11:33 AM
remist17 remist17 is offline
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I really appreciate all the time everyone put into this post. As a new member I really appreciate all the nice support.

Thank you .
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  #13  
Old 01-03-2013, 12:08 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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We were all new once too. Just giving back what was given to us.

Doug


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Old 01-04-2013, 02:45 PM
remist17 remist17 is offline
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I called Texas Knifemakers and seems that will be the easiest for me to do right now. For $5 dollars knife plus shipping its worth it to me. At leas until I understand everything on the heat treat process.... or at least more than what I know know.


Another dumb newbee question. I am assuming the knifes are sent in cut out to the general shape. After the heat treat final file work and sharpening takes place?
Please dont laugh to much at that question

Last edited by remist17; 01-04-2013 at 02:56 PM.
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  #15  
Old 01-04-2013, 04:19 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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If you are working with files then I would suggest that you shape the bevels and take the edge down to about half the width to the width of a dime before sending it out for heat treating. After the steel is hardened and tempered it will be as hard or nearly as hard as you files and will resist them and you will have to go to stones or diamond files for final shaping. If you are dealing with a grinder with good metal working belts, such as ceramics, you can grind you bevels after heat treating, though it will be a little slower. Partially due to the fact that you will have to cool your blades frequently in water to prevent over tempering them.

Doug


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