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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 05-06-2012, 10:16 PM
StevenRS11 StevenRS11 is offline
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Question Getting Started with limited equipment

Hey everyone,

I am a college student with a bit too much free time this term, so I decided to make a knife. I rummaged around our machine shop and got some different pieces of scrap sheet steel, test hardened a few pieces with a torch and water (carefully), and decided on the one that hardened up the most.

Long story short, I made a decent hunting knife out of 1/8 inch steel. Until the spine developed a tiny crack, that is. Now, all I can think about is making more knives, and then making some more after that. Ooops.

I ordered a nice piece of 1080 steel to start with, and I want to start making knives in my spare time, hopefully turning out quality stuff after a while. My problem, however,most of the equipment I have access to is not designed for knife making, and I have no way of upgrading in the near future. So this is my question, how do I work around my limited equipment while still producing quality knives?

What I do have-

1)One electric kiln (lucky here)
2)A bench grinder
3)Belt sander (not a grinder, uses a big wide belt and has one of those sanding wheels on the side.)
4) Every file imaginable
5) Torches
6) Vertical milling machines (CNC)
7) A large band saw
8) Sharpening stones
8) scroll saws
10) plenty of woodworking stuff.

I go through the other topics, and I always see these tools that are perfectly suited for the task, and I want them so bad, yet for the time being they just sit on my computer screen taunting me.

What I dont have-
1) One of those belt grinders, 2x72. This would solve most of my problems.
2) Oil for quenching.
3) another heat source for tempering after hardening. (solved)

My specific questions-

What is the best way to profile the knife? I used a jewelers/coping saw for the first one, which took forever and a half. Could I use the scroll saw, or is just a plain hacksaw the way to go? I tried the band saw, but it is not capable of making the curves I was going for.

How should I grind the knife into shape after profiling? For my first knife, I just used the bench grinder with its wheel to grind the bevel onto the blade. It worked, but I can only put so much of an angle on the bench grinder's tool rest, so the bevel cant reach very far towards the spine. Is it safe to hold the blade up to the wheel free hand? (ie, not flat against the tool rest)

When I heat treat my blades, I am stuck with quenching them in water because the shop manager considers oil quenching too much of a fire risk. What is the best way to minimize cracking in my blades, considering the steel I have, and that I am stuck with water or brine quenching?

I only have one kiln, and it takes a while for it to cool down to tempering temperatures. For my first knife, this was when it cracked. I went ahead and tempered it, and the crack actually closed up, and I wasn't able to make it spread, so it seems stableish now. I went ahead and finished off the knife, knowing that it would be more or less useless, but hey, its my first try. Should I temper the spine of the knife with a torch, leaving the edge in water, or something like that? I probably could go buy a toaster, I suppose.

One last thing- Once I have ground the bevel and heat treated the knife, what is the best way to make the edge bevel without breaking the HT on the knife?

Sorry for the long post, and thanks for reading!

Last edited by StevenRS11; 05-07-2012 at 12:41 AM.
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  #2  
Old 05-06-2012, 10:55 PM
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TexasJack TexasJack is offline
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Before I made a knife, I asked a knifemaker what was needed in order to make a knife. He replied, "Desire."

Look around and try to get your hands on a copy of Wayne Goddard's "$50 Knife Shop". It's a great book with lots of info (presented in a nice, simple way) and covers many aspects of the basics of knifemaking.

In trying to profile the steel, you've discovered why knifemakers like to forge blades when they can. Forging lets you create the shape without having to cut. Since you have a metal bandsaw, you can make basic cuts, then round those off with the bench grinder.


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  #3  
Old 05-06-2012, 11:25 PM
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Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
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First of all, welcome. Second of all, you need to realize you have WAY more than I started with and still have some things I do not. I also started in college, in my dorm room actually. I did not have a machine shop, or anyone to help me. My advice is master the set up you have now before spending lots of money on gear.

With that said, you can make your 4x36 grind knives quite well. How do I know this? Because that is what I use. www.supergrit.com sells ceramic belts in that size that are better on metal, will not wear out so well. Get some cull at home depot and build a stand to put in front of the 4x36 when upright. You can make a grinding jig by some aluminum stock that comes in the 90 degree L shapes. drill a hole in it about 3/16 and the same in the knife somewhere on the tang and bolt it on. On the other side, glue a strip of thin wood. Sand this down just a little so it angles the knife forward. Scribe a centerline down your knife. grind the knife in the jig until it is close to the centerline. Sand the wood a little more, your grind line will go up. Keep doing this until your grind line is where you want it. Always start with a higher angle cause you can go steeper but not the other way around.

TexasJack is right, desire is the main thing you need, not more equipment. I've seen guys make amazing knives without using a single power tool. You are not going to have much luck with water I think. Look into Goddard's goo. Believe it is in the $50 knife book. You may need your own forge. You can build a two brick for very cheap especially if you are near someplace that sells firebricks (shipping bricks is not fun).

One thing to realize is that if you are serious about this, you cannot always rely on other peoples equipment, i.e. the machine shop, because of such limitations.

You CAN temper in a toaster oven but they heat very uneven, with as much as a 10-30 degree difference even a couple inches apart, sorta like how a thermometer would be a couple inches from the knife. Even filling the tray with sand is bad because the element from the bottom heats the sand too much and the thermometer doesn't register that, but the knife does. A regular oven is much better, consistent heat. Only use a regular oven if you quench in cooking oils (olive, veg, bacon grease, etc). Some people quench in motor oil and stuff like that. If you temper in an oven after using these oils, everyone in your life will hate you forever.
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Old 05-06-2012, 11:29 PM
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Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
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Oh yeah I almost forgot. You are going to have a lot of questions. 99/100 of these questions have been asked many times, and while these very knowledgeable veterans can answer your questions, they have also written several books to answer them. Read them. All of them. I recommend starting with Step by Step Knifemaking by David Boye.
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  #5  
Old 05-07-2012, 12:34 AM
StevenRS11 StevenRS11 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli Jensen View Post
First of all, welcome. Second of all, you need to realize you have WAY more than I started with and still have some things I do not. I also started in college, in my dorm room actually. I did not have a machine shop, or anyone to help me. My advice is master the set up you have now before spending lots of money on gear.
I am still picking bits of metal out of my carpet in my dorm. Oh well. As for the equipment, I realize I have am very blessed to be able to have access to it, it is just that in some cases the tools I am trying to use are not generally used for knife making, and I want to make sure I don't damage the tool/myself/others or the knife. Being that these tools are not mine, I want to be particularly careful.

My main problem now is that the kiln I use is actually in a jewelry shop, and the guy who runs it doesn't want any flammable quenchants used. Are there any oils that dont burn (unlikely at 1500 F) or is there a way to reduce the speed that water quenches at?

Thanks for the help!
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  #6  
Old 05-07-2012, 03:50 AM
BarstowRat BarstowRat is offline
 
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Location: Barstow, Ca
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I am very jealous of your "limited" shop. All I have is an angle grinder and a couple files. lol
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  #7  
Old 05-07-2012, 05:37 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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You have way more equipment than most of us started out with. Now the trick is to learn how to use them effectively. If it's a machine shop, there's a side grinder there somewhere. FInd it and learn to use it to profile your blade. With practice you can even set your primary bevels.
Read up on making a simple two-brick forge and you can do your quenching outside the shop with canola oil.
A toaster oven will work well for tempering if set up right, sand in the bottom - no but insulated well - yes. Just add a good oven thermometer to set your temps (the dials on a TO lie bigtime).

But before you go to a lot more trouble, check around and find a local knifemaker. They/we are everywhere, but you have to put some effort into finding one.....we aren't standing on the street corner or sitting in a coffee shop with a latte'. Get him/her to show you some basics and your learning curve will dramatically improve. The books mentioned are great resources, combined with hands on experience and guidance you can learn the basics very fast.

Fill out your profile and you may find you are very close to a knifemaker or two that frequent here.


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  #8  
Old 05-07-2012, 11:39 AM
5artist5 5artist5 is offline
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I am finishing up my first 4 knives and I, like you have access to a belt sander that is not really what I would consider optimal for knife making. I used it do start the bevel but in the end I did most of the work with files. Sure it took a while, but in the mean time I had a lot of time while I was working to think about what I was doing and watch the whole thing come together. Honestly it went a lot faster than I thought it would and I am very happy with the results.
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Old 05-07-2012, 03:08 PM
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Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
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Very few things are made specifically for knife making. Those that are, cost more than most knifemakers can afford. Get used to cobbling things together. Guess how many things in my toolshed are made for knifemaking? 0. As far as not wanting to damage other people's equipment? My advice, get your own. Starting with good full face (NOT half face) respirator and other safety equipment.
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  #10  
Old 05-09-2012, 05:25 PM
StevenRS11 StevenRS11 is offline
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I ended up making a jig for the bench grinder, it works perfectly.











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  #11  
Old 05-09-2012, 07:44 PM
StevenRS11 StevenRS11 is offline
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I finished my second knife, posted some pictures but they havent appeared yet, so here are the raw links.

First knife-
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/img1398w.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/img1397jf.jpg/

Second knife-

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/15/img1396y.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/338/img1395t.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/img1394wj.jpg/

Anyway, I found an old motor that I plan on using to make a belt grinder along with a bunch of castable refractory. Time for a furnace!

Also, what is a good way to finish walnut? I used tung oil, and buffed minwax on it when it dried. Looks good, but I dont know how well it will stand up to the elements. I also have some persimmon wood I cut a few years ago myself, cant wait to use some of that. Its half as hard as my steel!
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  #12  
Old 05-10-2012, 03:12 PM
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Longshot Longshot is offline
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First off, welcome to the forums! I am also really jealous of your "Starting Tools". My first set of tools was an old bench grinder, a small belt sander, a sharpening stone, and some Gorilla Glue.

One question I can answer is that you can grind free hand on a bench grinder and still get a good hollow or flat grind. I have found that if you rely on the bench grinders tool rest too much you wont be able to make full use of the tool. Just be very carefull. I have found it is safer in general if there is no tool rest or guard on the wheel at all. Just too many places for items to get caught and sucked in along with your fingers.

It just takes practice and correct wheel selection to get a good grind on the knife blank with a bench grinder. Dont use the black aluminum oxide ones, they wear out fast so your grind angles wont be even. I would suggest one of the blue grinder wheels that are sold in hardware stores. They are quite cheap and dont wear out easy. For larger knives I would suggest the 8 in wheel and the 6 in for smaller ones. Also, while working on it, be sure not to use gloves. However, if you absolutely need something to protect your hands from the heat, make some grinding pads. Just take some thick but soft leather and put 3 or 4 layers together and stitch it. If the steel still gets too hot, let them soak in some water with a little bit of baking soda in it. This will help keep the steel cool while working and also prevent rusting when it dries.

As for your question about finishing Walnut, I have found that Danish Oil stains work excellent when applied with 600 grit sandpaper. The oil soaks into it and gives it a great color, and the finish is smooth in the hand without feeling like you coated it in polyurethane. The Persimmon should come out very nice! I have heard that it is very similar to working with Ebony.
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  #13  
Old 05-11-2012, 05:43 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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Persimon is an "ebony", the only one that grows natural in NA.
I believe (working off very old memory cells here) it's - Ebonace diospyrous virginianis (I'm sure the spelling is wrong). Nice chocolate brown with lighter streaks and black specks. The stump wood has some great figure, but big trees over 14" DBH are rare.


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