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The Damascus Forum The art and study of Damascus steel making.

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  #1  
Old 01-23-2010, 11:47 AM
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Just the billets

Good day all,

After a hammer-in at Don's I've been banging around in my head about making damascus but just some billets. I'm not really interested forging knives (please keep the tomato throwing down please) just making billets so I'm not wasting money on the tang and so I can get the styles I want easier. I figure I would bound out a few billets in the spring and fall (when it's cooler) to get me through the year. I won't need more than a few billets at the rate I make knives.

So how to go about this? Would the can forge be big enough? I want to make twist, rain drop, ladder and (if I get really ambitious) "W". From what I've read these can be made with a minimum of tools. Hammer, tongs, anvil, drill press and some files. Most of the pieces I would need would be 6"-10" long and about 1"-1.5" by 1/8" thick.

Any advise on what I'm getting myself into would be helpful.

Jim


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Old 01-23-2010, 12:35 PM
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Mike Turner Mike Turner is offline
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Hi Jim,

Not sure about a can forge. It may not get hot enough and the size will limit you. I would suggest making a forge, they really are not difficult to make. Ellis Custom Knifeworks has all the refractory and inswool you need to build one. Lots of good plans out there.

Once you made a few billets you will catch the sickness like me and can not stop .


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  #3  
Old 01-24-2010, 02:18 AM
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Couple of things to remember when thinking forge and billets.

A cold or work cooled billet of much size is a fairly large heat sink. Keep this in mind as you will have a drop in temp when trying to come back to welding heat.

Also flux will eat koawool like cotton candy! Use a castable coating or hard fire brick int the floor of your forge.

As mentioned above, a forge isnt too hard to make. Check around, there are several builds shown on the various forums. Darren Ellis will have everything you need to make your own, or if you can scrounge well, about all you need is the liner.

Good Luck and God Bless
Mike


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Old 01-24-2010, 10:02 AM
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You've been to a hammer in so I suppose you have at least seen someone make a damascus billet before. Chances are, they were using a power hammer or a press rather than doing it by hand as you plan to do and that really makes a difference in what can be accomplished quickly.

The billet you make needs to fit inside your forge (Duh!) and the forge does not need to be much larger than that in diameter. The billet needs to be of a size that is possible for you to work with your hammer and that size will be determined by your physical strength and stamina. You have to figure that part out for yourself but most people probably can't handle more than a 2" or 3" stack. I have a hard enough time with a 4" stack even with a hydraulic press!

A 6" diameter forge will handle a billet of that size. If you think you can do more then an 8" diameter should be enough. Without power equipment, I can't see how you would need anything larger than that.

As the other guys said, you'll need lots of heat. Small billets will lose their heat quickly so you will need to reheat often and as quickly as you can. Building layer count with small billets can take time and that means many reheats too. So again, you'll want to be able to heat as quickly as possible. To get the required heat you need a good burner. My preference would be to build a forced air burner because they are simpler than any venturi design that can produce the required heat and less expensive than buying a good venturi. Performance wise, a forced air burner will run circles around the majority of venturi burners (not all, but most) and they are much faster to build and debug mostly due to the fact they don't have the orifices and flared tips that can be so problematic with venturi burners.

So, a piece of 6" or 8" stove pipe with a layer of wool in it, a firebrick or two for the bottom (flux protection), some more bricks to close off the ends of the forge and the forge body is done. A few pieces of pipe, a gate valve, a ball valve, and a good blower is about all you need to build a forced air burner. My site and many others have instructions on how to build these things.

After that, all you'll need is some steel, a hammer, and a membership in Gold's Gym....


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Old 01-24-2010, 11:11 AM
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That Donnie is a bad influence!!! His hammer-ins are notorious for encouraging people to do new and exciting things beyond what they've been doing before. Radical!!

Ray, Don does his work by hand. I'm sure he'd love to have a power hammer, and I'm pretty sure he'd have a hard time sneaking the cost of that past is better half.

Drac, I'm pretty sure you were at Don's when they were building a bunch of forges. You should have a pretty good idea from that about what it will take to make one. Of course, it will pretty quickly suck you into forging blades.


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Old 01-24-2010, 04:20 PM
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Jim, Here is what works for me.
Look for Darren's forge gallery. Lots of design ideas there.


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Old 01-24-2010, 06:19 PM
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I have a kinda screwed up schedule coming up this Spring between *finally* getting work done on the old place and going back to Africa, but If you ever want to come down and put a forge together one weekend, I still have a lot of the tube material, hard brick and castable and a few other coatings and I'm sure we could find a mutual weekend.

We didn't have a power hammer...so we used a Stanley hammer!


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Old 01-24-2010, 06:40 PM
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I REALLY wish I could but the travel funds are used up for a while between the holidays trips around the country.


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Old 01-25-2010, 09:09 PM
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I could save you the cost of some of the refractories, but these days, gasoline far outweighs the cost fo a little firebrick!

How soon were you wanting to build a forge? I'll be gone this weekend, but should have your knife done the following weekend. I can ship it in a large flat-rate box and stuff some Satanite and enough castable to lay a floor in a forge along with some hard brick.


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Old 01-26-2010, 07:34 AM
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I was still in the kick it around stage but if you think I'm going to turn down help...


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Old 01-26-2010, 07:46 AM
Wade Holloway Wade Holloway is offline
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Jim we are not to far from each other now, if you let me know what weekend you want to build it I can come up to your house to help out. With the new job I have to work every other Saturday but I am also free a couple of days during the middle of the week too. Just let me know.
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Old 01-26-2010, 08:10 AM
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Looks like your just south of Fort Worth?

By Map Quest Crowley's about a little over an hour from Richardson just down 35. I think I might be able to get together after a while. I can probably talk my wife into letting me head that way while she's at a Humane Society dog event.

But the real question is are you offering help for me as a knifemaker or just trying to get more pie?



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Old 01-27-2010, 05:25 AM
Wade Holloway Wade Holloway is offline
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Hey I am just willing to help a fellow knife maker out, but if there is some extra Pecan Pie laying around all the better. All kidding aside I think I have just about everything that would be needed to put together a small forge together for you. If you decide you want to do this just let me know.
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:44 PM
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I know Wade, but trust me I wouldn't show up at a guy's house and expect help without bringing something for the host.


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Old 01-27-2010, 08:24 PM
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Wade,

Come to think of it maybe I should put together a cooking for damascus setup.

1 pie = 6", pecan for 9" (I make a good pecan pie according to you guys)

1 box of 2 dozen truffles = 9"

Death by Chocolate Cake (1500 calories a slice) = 12"

What do you guys think?


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