Death of a Show?

[Buddy Thomason]

Originally Posted by WLGoddard

Our show coordinator is elected by the membership at our local meeting... A good dictator is not a bad thing.

Who is the show coordinator?

[WLGoddard]

Roger said,

"Ugh. That certainly does NOT reflect the type of environment that I would spend valuable dollars and vacation days to attend. No way. This may well be considered "still the best show anywhere" by some. But not by me."

That's a strong opinion. Question: Have you attended the show you are talking about?

Ed has painted an ugly picture that is not true to the reality of the show. I would hope that we see more opinions here from folks that actually saw the show.

Wayne

[RogerP]

Originally Posted by WLGoddard

Roger said,

"Ugh. That certainly does NOT reflect the type of environment that I would spend valuable dollars and vacation days to attend. No way. This may well be considered "still the best show anywhere" by some. But not by me."

That's a strong opinion. Question: Have you attended the show you are talking about?

Ed has painted an ugly picture that is not true to the reality of the show. I would hope that we see more opinions here from folks that actually saw the show.

Wayne

Wayne,

I've had a look at the pictures painted by both you and Ed and others. The sum total of that equation is a show that I would not particularly want to attend. Since attending ANY show in the U.S. involves significant travel time and expense you can be sure I ask around from people who have been in the past in order to determine whether it is a show I would want to attend. This one isn't. You may characterize that opinion as strong and suggest it is ill-founded. But I haven't heard you say that there was no cotton candy or tables of Pakistani knives and I have heard you defend the decision not to group the custom makers together. I, for one, wouldn't want to have to use a map in order to steer clear of what Ed has described as "junk". The end result is a "must pass" for me. I freely admit that this may be other people's idea of a fine knife show. It isn't mine.

Roger

P.S. - Instead of casting aspersions about Ed painting "an ugly picture that is not true to the reality of the show" perhaps you could point EXACTLY what, if anything, was false in his posts. That would certainly be helpful.

[WLGoddard]

Roger,

It's not a fair and true statement that the show has taken on a flea market look.

Ed's death of a show question that started this thread gave the impression that the show was going downhill. I will suggest that his opinion is not that of the majority of people who attended the show.

Show rules say that a table must be predominately knife related items. That is commonly thought to mean 25% other stuff. I didn't ever see cotton candy for sale on a table. Cheap imported knives yes, they are not against the show rules. They are a part of the knife world today.

Wayne

[McAhron]

Wayne this is off topic but i would like to say it is very nice to see you here.I hope you become a regular.I think youve been a great teacher and inspiration to most of us.Are you still writing for blade,i let my subscription lapse and in my new issue Joe sizalski was doing the q and a.have you finished you web sit and if so could you post a link.Thanks McAhron

[AcridSaint]

I'd like to chime in here. I don't think that the tone of Ed's post is one of hate and discontent, but one of disappointment. You're going to have some rather strong feelings if your suggestions are met with "a snide attitude and rude comments." I don't think anyone wants any knife show to go away, but if a guy has a table at the show and thinks it could be better he's probably worth listening to.

Mr. Goddard, you said that it's a knife show and not a knife sale. Sales do occur at such things, none of us can deny this, but they occur, at least in part, due to exposure. Due to showing your knives. Some of the makers may feel lost in the entropy and may not be getting the exposure they feel they deserve. If it's a show, then perhaps custom makers with a wide variety of talent on display feel they should get more attention than the guy with the box that says "folders $3 ea. or 3 for $7." I'm not saying that anyone is more or less deserving of a table, I'm just trying to show why some people are not happy with the event.

I think that there is a unique opportunity here for everyone to walk away from this thread happy. You're on a forum with some very respectable guys who have good input to give. Why not put some of these guys in touch with your group and try to work something out that benefits the entire community? I've seen Ed's posts like this before. He always asks for other people's input and tries to get a fair assessment. I don't think he's trying to trash you guys, he's just trying to ask "what do we do now?".

You may have 8000 new makers come out to next years show, but you might also be missing out on a lot of other good ones like Ed Caffrey. Often times things take a different direction than we would like, we just have to figure out what to do next. I don't think anyone needs to miss out.

[samf]

Hi
I went to the show i wish the show could do a house cleaning of all flea market stuff and try to get more makers back and new ones coming in i think next year there will be a shortage of good makers there iam glad the Blade west show is moving to portland
Sam Fogler

[Ed Caffrey]

Before this thing gets out of hand, I want to interject a couple of things. What I posted when I began this thread is based on my own experiences attending the show, as well as information gleaned from various other makers and buyers/collectors. I'm not skewing anything, nor do I have any vindetta against the OKCA. I've enjoyed the show in the past, but have chosen to abstain from it for a number of reasons.
Whether we want to acknowledge it or not, Makers attend knife shows with the intent of exposing their product to the public, with the general hope of selling.
What I perceive as the quality of the show declining was only a portion of my reasons for dropping the show from my schedule, although it did play a major role.
Another determining factor was that on nearly every occassion I attempted to speak with the show chairman, I would get attitude and rudeness.
This year when I did not pay my table fee, I got a letter telling me that I had better get my table fee in if I wanted a table, and that if I was not attending, to phone or email. I emailed, saying that I would not be attending the show this year, and that I would be happy to discuss the reasons "if you would care to hear them". In response I got a blunt email telling me "Your loss."
The tables may be inxpensive compared to other shows around the country, but regardless of the cost, when I pay to attend a show, I become the customer of that show, and expect to be treated as such. That has not occurred for the last few years at this show.

Next, Wayne, I suppose I would be irritated if it were someone talking like this about the Montana show, so I understand your reaction. I understand the show is very near and dear to you, and fully acknowledge your hard work and efforts in developing the show. As with many others, I've learned a great deal from you over the years, and will always hold you in the highest regard.
Had this been a "hissy fit" or something I had written in anger, I probably would have just ranted and raved, and not asked for others to provide their opinions and experiences. As it is, I think I've voiced what many makers and show patrons have been feeling for the last few years, hoping that it might serve to effect some changes. If it does not, then I have made the attempt, and done what I can, with no ill will or grudges.

[Jon Christensen]

Wayne,
I have been attending the show for 4 years. OKCA has been and continues to be a relaxed and friendly show, I enjoy going there to see friends, make new ones, look for handle material and hopefully sell a few knives.
I have however noticed a change in the show. "Flea market" may sound harsh but does describe the direction the show is turning. If your only concern is for collectors then this may not be a problem, but for makers it is. The show has been a 50-50 split between makers and collectors. This year it was closer to 25-75. If this is a trend then who are the suppliers going to sell to????? Will they continue to come to the show???????????

You shouldn't be too hard on Ed over this post. He is only saying what many makers have been thinking. I talked to many people who felt the same. I would say that he is doing you a favor in stating his opinion. He has in the past talked highly of this show which is one of the reasons I got a table there. When you find a good show you hate to lose it.

By the way, I do remember the table last year that was selling cotton candy!

Jon

[chrisinbeav]

Originally Posted by WLGoddard

OKCA prints a list of exhibitors with a map of the show on the back. Rows are clearly marked. These are available at the show and there is no reason why someone can?t find their favorite knifemaker.

Where was that...? It was quite obvious that the tables were marked but I never saw any flyers, map, etc... that showed who was where. The layout seemed very confusing...

This was the first time that I had attended any show that was stricly for us knife makers. It definately wasn't what I had expected or hoped it would be. I hate to say it, but I was greatly disappointed. I had been looking forward to attending the show since last year. The past couple weeks I had been franticly making knives to take to the show to hopefully sell, or at least gain a little interest in my knives. It was all I could do to get anyone to even look at them. I think that it was mostly due to the fact that I didn't have a table. (My own fault)

Anyways, I was extremely overwhelmed at how many low end, and other non-knife related items were there. If I wanted to buy a wallet I would goto the store, not a knife show. If I wanted to buy a cheapy throw away knife I would goto a thrift store. The whole atmosphere seemed kind of weird. It was very un-friendly, the majority of the knife makers seemed borderline rude when talking to a newbie such as myself. There where a couple that I enjoyed talking with, but most didn't seem to want to spend the time talking to someone that wasn't interested in buying a knife but wanted to talk shop. I might have just hit people at a bad time, I seem to be good at that. I am having reservations about attending next year and having a table. We'll see....

On the other hand, what I really liked were all the knife suppliers there. I was really wishing I had a lot of money with me so I could have bought some of the beautiful scales, blocks, and damascus that were available. Man there was some sweet stuff!

Chris Nilluka

[rhrocker]

Chris, why no table? Are you required to furnish your own?

[NickWheeler]

As a young maker, I'm not gonna try and preach to anybody here... especially somebody who's been in it for so long like you Wayne, but since you asked for peoples' thoughts---

I do have some feelings about the show and thought I would share them... even if not to support my own opinion, to support my friend Ed.

I think the show is really something to behold, the shear size is staggering. I think Dennis busts his rump working on it...along with a whole crew of folks behind the scenes. I held a table there for 4 years and always had a nice time. I never once sold a knife though. When I sell out at Blade and ABS Reno, I don't THINK it's just me and what's on the table.

I must say, that I don't understand Dennis's aversion to organizing the room by what will be on a table, i.e. customs, forged, antique, factory, etc.

The only other show of similar size is Blade show, it is organized that way, and to me and everyone I've talked to about it... it works very well.

Many show-goers have told me they get lost at the Eugene show and that they feel as though they were in a giant flea-market. I guess if you are into flea-markets that wouldn't make any matter. But for custom makers it's less than ideal.

I fully realize the show is not ONLY for custom makers, we were only ever a part of it.... but went from a large part, to a much smaller part. I would think that's a bad thing for the show itself and not just the makers, but I could be wrong.

I do have to heavily disagree on one aspect of this thread. The idea that we shouldn't go there to sell knives. As a full-time maker, I usually drop 6-8 weeks getting ready for a show. That's 6-8 weeks where I will only get paid if I sell at a show. Not to mention all the travel expenses and such.

Shows are very much about the comraderie, meeting new friends, educating, and all those wonderful things matter very much to me... but I also have to be able to come home and pay my bills. If the latter didn't matter, I'd just give all my knives away. Not to be a smart-ass, but if I sold 8,000 books, I probably wouldn't worry if I sold any knives either.

I am not trying to cause any hurt feelings or confrontation here. Just adding some thoughts.

In summation, I think the simple act of reducing the size and dividing it up into at least two categories, "Factory" and "Custom" would give the show that elegant, intimate feel, and improve it for everyone attending.

Just my $0.02, and I'm sure it's not even worth that much
-Nick-

http://www.wheelerknives.com

[WLGoddard]

plain old Bill wrote,
"the show was a lot like a flea market to me with all the junk, dogs running around, crude people etc. I will not bother making the trip back to see the show again myself. I have high hopes that Blade show west will re-introduce some class back into area shows. I hope you and all the other custom makers that are disgusted w/ Eugene will come to it."

Bill also wrote "I did get comments from a lot of makers that they will not bother going to this show again."

To plain old Bill, I'd truly like to know which makers told you they wouldn't be back to OKCA Show. I want to check up on them to see if they show up next year. You can send me the list by private mail. Numbers would be good too so I can go to the show management with real numbers not just vague comments. I will personally bring up all of the complaints made here at our meeting April 20.

Today I interviewed some folks who attended the recent show. Most thought Ed's and Bill's comments were funny. They especially enjoyed considering that they might be one of the crude people seen running around by Bill. I saw dogs on leashes, not running around loose. If I had my way there would be no dogs allowed, that's one thing we can agree on.

Tables at OKCA are $95.00, BLADE Show West are $475. That's the difference between a for-profit enterprise and a knife collectors club show. Yes, it will be a different type of show by its very nature.

Wayne Goddard, I'm at
wgoddard44@comcast.net

[NickWheeler]

Wayne-

I appreciate your thoughts on this thread.

A young guy like me has it on easy street getting into full-time knifemaking compared to the ground you had to break at the start.

I'm sure you had to make it through hard times trying to survive as a maker... so I could see where my comments may have seemed snide, I hope you didn't take them that way.

-Nick-

[WLGoddard]

A History Lesson
The Oregon Knife Collectors Association got it?s start when I got handful of knife collectors together in my living room to work out the details of a knife club. It was 1973, I think. I was the only knifemaker in the group. We were only interested in having a club, the show came later. We named it Emerald Blade Collectors at the start and had monthly meetings for show and tell, trade and sell. The first show was in 1975 was the first on the West Coast. The first two (1975 and 1976) were as a private enterprise by myself and Dennis Ellingsen. Two years later the club had grown and was ready to run the show.
The club incorporated in 1976 and the name Oregon Knife Collectors Association was decided on. The first rule was that all things that go cut would be allowed. Ten percent of a table could be non knife-related stuff. The heart of the club has always been collectors and collecting.
The handmade knife part of the show has grown faster than the collector part. It now seems that a segment of the handmade scene wants the show to conform to what they want. This has split other clubs/shows and I don?t want it to happen here. There are all handmade shows, art knife shows, a Master Smith show and we have the phenomenon known as The Oregon Knife Show. My opinion is that the show is special because of the lay out. I guess the lay out and bad sales are the real issues. I didn?t mean to say that makers shouldn?t think of the show as a sales venue. I said sales of handmade or other knives wasn?t the purpose of having the show in the first place.
I?m sorry to say that my opinion is sales are only going to get more difficult for knifemakers. Financial collapse of the US dollar is possible. (Is it really true that our government financed our current war by selling bonds to China). Folks are being cautious with their money and I doubt that this changes any time soon. I think that some of those who are full time makers will find it increasingly hard to make a living off of knives alone. Like I said before, I anxiously await the results makers find at the remainder of the shows this year. Let?s don?t blame all that stuff on the OKCA Show.
I only wanted to make one point here and I?ll say it again. The OKCA Show is alive and well and serving the purpose for which it was created. It won?t die because knifemakers aren?t getting rich and famous or from allowing knives of all types and prices to be sold. Dogs and cotton candy we can perhaps eliminate.