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  #61  
Old 02-20-2004, 09:44 AM
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Jeff Higgins Jeff Higgins is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Don Robinson
"Because I made it."
This single statement speaks volumes, Don. This is the quintessential element in how I judge my prices. All of my blades I consider a part of myself. Granted, if I make a Scagel copy, or a Loveless hunter, they go for a rather standard price. But if I decide to do an art knife or a sword, then that blade is of MY design. Forged with MY hands. My blood is on that blade. My spirit is riding the edge of it, and gleaming its way into your eyes as you hold it. How can anyone accurately put a price on that?

I'm not bragging, and I actually don't think too highly of myself or my work... but others do. I just try to be as humble as I can about it. I guess the real reason your words, "Because I made it", resonate so well with me is that I'm an artist first, and bladesmithing is only an outlet for my creativity. If I sell a blade. Fine. I get some money for a new batch of belts or some new shop toy maybe.

I treat all of my customers like friends. With friends you can be honest enough to say that you have over 100 hours tied up into a knife and THIS is why its going for this price.

Btw, Don, You'd be surprised at how many collectors know about you.


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  #62  
Old 02-20-2004, 01:25 PM
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Well, thanks for that, Jeff. It's seldom that anyone else agrees with what I have to say.
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  #63  
Old 02-20-2004, 04:33 PM
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SharpByCoop SharpByCoop is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
Btw, Don, You'd be surprised at how many collectors know about you.
Be careful, Jeff. This statement can be interpreted two ways!!!



Quote:
But if I decide to do an art knife or a sword, then that blade is of MY design. Forged with MY hands. My blood is on that blade. My spirit is riding the edge of it, and gleaming its way into your eyes as you hold it.


####. Great comment. Jeff, do you write ad copy??!

Coop


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  #64  
Old 02-20-2004, 05:54 PM
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Now now, Coop, play nice!
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  #65  
Old 02-21-2004, 07:24 AM
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I've been very interested in this thread. I've been working steadly toward going full time for the past couple of years. Making sure my quality is up to par, setting up the business properly, working very hard on customer service and reputation building.
A couple of my knife making friends that feed their kids and dog from knife making have told me I really need to up my prices. I've been doing this gradualy so my price didn't out pace my quality. I've been using the formula of materials charge + hours rounded up to the next 25.00. My shop rate has been 30.00 which was easier for me to justify.
On my way to town to get my wifes new truck serviced I was pondering the formula for figuring shop rate. The number I came up with was 56.50. I'd read and understood the justifications for shop rate but still was feeling like this was price gouging.

THEN I got the bill for my wife service job..............................

They didn't blink an eye charging me 75.00 and hour for labor plus materials and disposal fees.

I came home and did some price checking on other services....programing.....lawn care....plumers.....the bug man.

I have come to the conclusion that people are getting a #### fine deal at my new shop rate of 60.00 and hour.


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  #66  
Old 02-21-2004, 12:04 PM
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I think there's some basic economic perceptions / prec-conceptions that keep many craftspeople from paying themselves sufficiently. Many people are used to the notion that you get a certain rate per hour for your work. For many, getting $15.00 per hour working for someone else is considered pretty fair... I know that in Vermont that is just $3.00 per hour over what is considered a bare-subsistence Liveable Wage. When we move to self-employment we still have the concept of what decent, hard work is worth... so we balk at what a realistic pay rate for a self-employed craftsman should be. One thing that is important to remember is that ( theoretically at least, ) when you are employed, your employer is paying another 7.5% for your social security, paying unemployment taxes in case they have to lay you off, paying for (some) of your health insurance etc... you think you're getting $15.00 per hour, but you're actually worth much more. Add to that the fact that a business with employees is spreading the expenses around to maximize efficiency. There's a CEO somewhere making up to 500 times what you make! Ever wonder what HE gets per hour? It's probably in the thousands. Well, when you're self-employed you're the custodian as well as the CEO. I have thought nothing of paying a well-known tattoo artist $200.00 per hour and that was in 1990!

Anyway... they tried to hammer this idea into our heads in Art School. We here can do something that most people cannot. How many people that want a special knife or piece of jewelry can actually make it? Now, how many people that *want* a special knife *need* it?

I know that underpricing my work in the past has actually made it economically harder for me to get work finished. My advice to those that are just starting out is to be confident, and don't make the mistake of thinking you're only worth $15.00 per hour. Les said something about how when a maker starts out people are "paying for your mistakes," which got me thinking... I bet I'll still see things I can do better when I'm a Mastersmith! One of the joys of being a craftsman is the constant challenge to *always* be better. O.K., back to the forge...


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  #67  
Old 02-21-2004, 01:47 PM
JimmySeymour JimmySeymour is offline
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Something that really shouldn't be overlooked is the consiquences of putting out bad work. I have bought many knives from many makers, and a bad knife can really set you back. Reputation carries alot in your price, not at first but later down the road. I won't name anyone, but I bought a knife from a maker who I have done a lot of business with. He charged double for what he usually does. He explained his work had improved and by his last knife I got I believed him. The knife I got was in far worse shape than some of his earlier work. He can kiss my money goodbye forever. Once your prices increase your level of craftsmanship better go up with it or you will be left out in the cold. I have many blades in my fathers shop I made as a child that I would never sell, because one bad knife does more damage to your reputation and prices than ten great ones. Especially with repeat customers. I think before you raise your prices you need to be able to produce knives on another level than previous or you are asking for trouble. How much that level is really depends on to many factors multiplied by how much you intend to raise your prices. There is a lot of good info on this subject in this forum. Just wanted to throw in another factor to consider.
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  #68  
Old 02-21-2004, 04:01 PM
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Jimmy,

You should talk to that maker. If it was me I'd want to know and make it better. A honest question for you: if that maker's original price had been higher would you be as upset to have spent, say 25% more on the second piece? I think that a starting maker can set himself up for trouble by starting low and creating certain expectations. I think you're right about quality though: I'm behind on about four or five commissions right now because I only want my best work to go out, and sometimes that means spending a week or more on a blade that must be rejected and restarted. That is precisely one of the reasons I don't want to depend on my knives for income anymore... the temptation to sell a blade you're not 100% satisfied with becomes immense when there's a bottom line & a schedule involved. It creates a dangerous catch 22 between taking too long or putting out substandard work. It's the reason I don't take deposits or really do true custom work anymore. I've been thinking about these issues a lot lately as I catch up and remodel my business to depend on easier, more profitable things like jewelry. I love blades, but they are a #### demanding business...


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  #69  
Old 02-21-2004, 04:43 PM
JimmySeymour JimmySeymour is offline
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Mr. Loose,

I havn't talked with the maker about it. I can be pretty rough around the edges when it comes to stuff like that, and constructive critism or disatissfaction comes out a whole lot rougher than I usually want it to. Your right though I shouldn't hold a grudge or anything and do owe him the curitusy of letting him know. I think I spent around 200 on his first knife then in about 4 months the second was 600. quite a leap. Granted some of it was materials that is why I say it was only a double in price. But what really bothered me was the first knife had great attention to the little details and the second looked like a rush job at best. Your right about the catch 22. I have no problem waiting longer for a knife if the maker feels it is just not up to quality and will pay a lot more for one that a maker will truly put a lot of effort into. Harvey Dean said it best at my intro class about pricing knives. Imagine the price range for your knives as a pyramid. When starting out your at the bottom. For each step up the pyramid you need for your work to improve and reputation. Once you go up you can't go back down without bad consequences. This has a little to do with what was said earlier. Let's say a Buster Warenski knife is put up for sale at a knife show for 300 hundred dollars. Everyone is gonna wonder what is wrong with it. It's a warenski there should be another zero there. This whole thread is very complicated but I am glad to see it. It got me thinking in directions I hadn't thought before.
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  #70  
Old 02-21-2004, 07:11 PM
JimmySeymour JimmySeymour is offline
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Maybe we should make a new forum on here were we come up with a guidline for how much we charge. We would need input from the collectors as well as the makers on this one. Anyone interested in making some guidelines. It would help us all, after we stepped on some toes and made some enemies we would have something that would benefit this entire industry to have a set of guidelines in writing.
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  #71  
Old 02-22-2004, 01:05 PM
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Hi John,

There are mistakes in every knife. One of the things I do at my seminar at the Blade Show. Is have collectors take out their custom folders and have them open the blade look at it for 3 seconds. Then tell me if the maker is left or right handed.

Trust me once you know what your looking for, 3 seconds is more than long enough.

Pointing out this "mistake" is done to educate the collectors. This mistake is based on skill. Name, reputation, etc. does not enter into it. Either the maker has it right or they don't.

This edcuation shows the collectors that some makers who get a lot for their knives, perhaps shouldn't. Others who don't get enough for their knives should get more money.

Again this is based soley on skill.

Just because a maker is considered exceptional. Does not mean every knife will be. We all have bad days. Some of these makers will destroy what they consider bad work.

Others will but it on the table. Bolster mistakes can be covered with engraving. Problems with an Ivory handle can be covered with scrimshaw. There are other tricks of the trade.

However, initially all makers have mistakes in their knives. It is after all part of the learning curve for making knives.

This is the exact reason why I recommend to makers that their prices start out low. Then when the price increases come. It is for the sole reason that your work should now command that price.

Value for the dollar....you can never go wrong with that philosphy.

Oh, BTW if you want to know how to determine if the maker is left or right handed. Come to my seminar at the Blade Show in June.

The key to this, "Find the Ambidextrous Knife Makers".


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  #72  
Old 02-22-2004, 01:25 PM
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Hi Jimmy,

In theory a set of guidelines for pricing custom knives is an excellent idea.

However, it is the application of these guidelines is where you will run into problems.

The variables for pricing will have differing values for each maker.

The most difficult aspect is assessing the values of the "intangables" into the pricing structure.

Intangibles include (but are not limited to):

Demand, both in the primary and after markets.

Collectibility.

Style

Designs

Materials used (degree of difficulty and skills required).

Position in the makers primary and secondary markets.

Leadership.

All of these impact pricing differently for each maker.

I think the basics for pricing have been covered very well in this thread. Beyond that it is really up to each maker to figure out.

Imput from their collectors can help.


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  #73  
Old 02-22-2004, 02:12 PM
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This is going to be off topic. Jeff Higgins, where can a person get a look at some of your knives and how does someone get your contact info? I have checked this forum for pictures of your knives and have had no luck. I have also had no luck finding a web site.


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  #74  
Old 02-23-2004, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Coop747
####. Great comment. Jeff, do you write ad copy??!

Coop
Actually, I did write ad copy for a major printing company a few years ago. Do you know how difficult it is to say good things about checks, business cards and stationery? I eventually got sick of riding a desk and went back to wrenching for a living. So much for a BS in Marketing, eh?


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  #75  
Old 02-23-2004, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
This is going to be off topic. Jeff Higgins, where can a person get a look at some of your knives and how does someone get your contact info? I have checked this forum for pictures of your knives and have had no luck. I have also had no luck finding a web site.
Keith, my apologies if you spent a great deal of time looking for a website. The past three years have been slim for us for any extra cash. My daughter's wedding sapped my savings and my home equity fund to the point it has been difficult for us to recover. The last knife I made was a hunter out of D-2 and antler with brass furniture for my father, right before Christmas. I didn't take a pic because we didn't have a camera at the time.

Until just recently, we've been laying low - moneywise - and not indulging in anything more than necessary. So in a round-about way, pics of my knives are all in a hardcopy photo album. We just now bought a digital camera, and I am having a lot of fun with it.
Money and time have also prevented us from doing a website. To make matters worse, last year the shed I was forging in collapsed during the worst snowstorm of the year. I spent a great deal of time "digging out." Hopefully, God willing, I'll have all my projects done by May and the rest of teh year is mine. Maybe I'll even get another smithy built before snow flies again.

Weddings, and three family deaths have marked the last year in our household with joy and tragedy. This new year seems to be good to us so far, so please be on the lookout for a new website and PLENTY of new knives.

Thanks for reading my hard luck story!


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