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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #16  
Old 08-06-2016, 07:15 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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Waaaayyyy not worth the time effort!


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  #17  
Old 08-06-2016, 09:22 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Quote:
A friend mentioned to me about iron anvils with steel surface. Is that possible? If I weld a steel board on top of a cast iron anvil will it work good?
The anvils that have a tool steel "face" with WROUGHT iron bodies are some of the best anvils.

That being said, you're talking about a CAST IRON body, with a STEEL face....totally different thing. I also suspect when you mentioned "welding" a steel "board" to a cast iron base, you were thinking of stick, TIG, or MIG welding..... you MIGHT get the stick/TIG, or MIG welding part to work (welding steel to cast iron is a feat in itself), but the overall product, if accomplished in that manner, will be far worse then the even the cheapest, lowest quality anvil.

The process used for mating a "plate" to the body of anvils is essentially a forge weld type situation.....the entire face plate is welded/bonded to the body, making it more a less a single piece. It's not something that can be accomplished in the average home shop, and even in an industrial setting, it takes special tooling, methods, and techniques.

My advice is to "bite the bullet"....find and purchase a "good" anvil, get yourself a forge, and start working/experimenting. You'll find that the reality of actually doing it, will not only answer many questions for you, but it will also debunk much of the misinformation you've consumed to this point.


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  #18  
Old 08-06-2016, 09:56 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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I agree you can get or make a better one with a lot less effort and time...again I use a piece of train track yeh I got mine for free but if you cant you can buy a piece there are plenty out there, or just a bar of steel like ray said would serve the same purpose....
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  #19  
Old 08-06-2016, 10:32 AM
Alphard Alphard is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Lester View Post
The good point on the web is that anyone can publish. The biggest draw back is anyone can publish, especially the people who don't know what they are talking about. The person who made that video doesn't understand how an anvil works. Those plates only being connected at the sides is not going to allow for the work energy of the hammer blows to be reflected by the anvil. Any anvil, more realistically and anvil shaped object, made that way will deaden the energy applied by the hammer and work you to death. So, if you need to read it, Dude, an anvil made that way really sucks.

To go back to what Ray said, I found an 87 lb block of H13 steel, I think it's 7X6X4" that I got from a supplier in St. Louis and as I recall it cost me $140, shipping included, and that was about four years ago. It out performs my 110 lb Mexican POS by a long shot.

There was a YouTube video that showed a new steel face being forge, not stick or gas, welded to a cast iron or wrought iron body. As I recall they build a large charcoal forge to heat up the body and plate. It took then something like seven hours to get the body hot enough to take the weld. They had to pick up the anvil bade with long steel pipes to manipulate it and have a small team of smiths set the weld with sledge hammers. It was just one of those "let's see if we can do it" things thought up by a smithing club. Definitely dangerous and definitely not worth it.

Doug
Alright thanks for the info. I'll drop the idea of welding plates and get a huge block on a junkyard
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  #20  
Old 08-06-2016, 10:41 AM
Alphard Alphard is offline
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Ok so I'm going for a junkyard steel piece for an anvil

I got 3 new questions regarding the anvil:

1) Suppose I find a 30cmx30cmx30cm metal cube on a junkyard. How can I find out what metal is it or if steel, what steel alloy?

2) If that block is a 1020 steel would it be necessary to heat treat it? What are the conditions that determine if that block of whatever metal needs heat treatment?

3) The same block of 1020 steel vs the same block of 5150 steel, or 1045 or higher carb alloys in general. Is it MUCH better and perforfance is easily noticed? Wanna kknow if spending more for better material is worth it
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  #21  
Old 08-06-2016, 11:25 AM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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Originally Posted by Alphard View Post
I got 3 new questions regarding the anvil:

1) Suppose I find a 30cmx30cmx30cm metal cube on a junkyard. How can I find out what metal is it or if steel, what steel alloy?

2) If that block is a 1020 steel would it be necessary to heat treat it? What are the conditions that determine if that block of whatever metal needs heat treatment?

3) The same block of 1020 steel vs the same block of 5150 steel, or 1045 or higher carb alloys in general. Is it MUCH better and perforfance is easily noticed? Wanna kknow if spending more for better material is worth it
Pretty much anything you get from the scrap yard is going to be a crap shoot. Just use what you find, it will work harden. You're not going to see the performance of a Hay Buddin but it will move the metal. I made hundreds of knives on a piece of RR track until I found an anvil.
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  #22  
Old 08-06-2016, 11:39 AM
Alphard Alphard is offline
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Originally Posted by jmccustomknives View Post
Pretty much anything you get from the scrap yard is going to be a crap shoot. Just use what you find, it will work harden. You're not going to see the performance of a Hay Buddin but it will move the metal. I made hundreds of knives on a piece of RR track until I found an anvil.
What is work hardening?
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  #23  
Old 08-06-2016, 12:19 PM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Chances are very good that any "block" large enough that you find in a scrapyard are going to be mild steel, and basically no better then buying a cheap cast iron anvil.

Generally the only way you're going to find a "block" of any steel that is hardenable, which is large enough, is going to be to special order it..... and you're going to be paying as much as an anvil would cost.

Even if you could/do find a "block" large enough for use as an anvil, and it's is a hardenable material, you're going to pay another chuck of money to have it heat treated, because I double you have the ability or equipment to do it yourself.

In the end I suppose you can work with whatever you want, but you posted questions, and you have a lot of experienced people here trying to help you.....don't discount what they have to say.


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  #24  
Old 08-06-2016, 01:26 PM
Alphard Alphard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Caffrey View Post
Chances are very good that any "block" large enough that you find in a scrapyard are going to be mild steel, and basically no better then buying a cheap cast iron anvil.

Generally the only way you're going to find a "block" of any steel that is hardenable, which is large enough, is going to be to special order it..... and you're going to be paying as much as an anvil would cost.

Even if you could/do find a "block" large enough for use as an anvil, and it's is a hardenable material, you're going to pay another chuck of money to have it heat treated, because I double you have the ability or equipment to do it yourself.

In the end I suppose you can work with whatever you want, but you posted questions, and you have a lot of experienced people here trying to help you.....don't discount what they have to say.
Well the problem of buying a good anvil like you sugested is that in my country a good anvil costs A LOT. And the only way is internet since there aren't any shops around. And they're all used since new anvils here are cast iron stuff. So add the repairing cost to that expensive anvil and it's a very expensive tool... not to mention the headache of finding good repair workers and also traveling to other states to check the anvils (buying online stuff without seeing them is not a good idea here)

My country has a serious problem with taxes and bureucracy and the implications for that are all over the commerce and industry... I noticed americans and europeans can check dozens of websites with catalogs and you can buy stuff from 1084 to tool steels steel, choose the plate measurements, easy payment and quality shipping... it's as easy as ebay shopping. Here companies only handle industrial size orders so if you are born in a small city like me there's just no options. It's the same for wood, leather, everything.

With that explained you can understand my questions. I'm not trying to get luxury, just trying to get an option at all lol

Just so you know, in my city there was 3 blacksmiths 20 years ago, or so the legends say. Old fellows are dead now and the only anvil (real anvil with horns) I've seen was a small one, 150 years old, family heirloom. The user is a mechanic and he told me he still uses it but not forgework. So you see I can't find a mentor here. There's a steel company, it's actualy a small reseller for a larger company, 1020 and 1045 are the only options. You see, this isn't a good place for hobbies. The rest of the country gets better, but not so much.

* I found out a brazilian section in the forum and reading through it since morning I've found out some steel suppliers. But still, price, variety and convenience is still an issue but I'll keep pushing forward

Last edited by Alphard; 08-06-2016 at 01:34 PM.
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  #25  
Old 08-06-2016, 06:09 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Alphard,

Please fill out your profile so these guys might get a clue that you are not in the USA! It makes a lot of difference to the type of advice you will get ...


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  #26  
Old 08-06-2016, 08:28 PM
Alphard Alphard is offline
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Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
Alphard,

Please fill out your profile so these guys might get a clue that you are not in the USA! It makes a lot of difference to the type of advice you will get ...
I did that about 6 hours ago... is it showing?
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  #27  
Old 08-06-2016, 10:03 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Since your dad is a welder see if he can get some hardfacing welding rod, either stick or tig, I don't know if they would have the mig wire there, but they should have the stick rod for hardfacing. You simply weld to cover the face of a steel block with that and grind it flat after. I used to hard face plowing discs and the teeth for backhoe scoops and asphalt machinery. If you can't find a cheap cast iron anvil and go with a nice steel block then that's the way to go for a cheap and quick hard surface. There is also case hardening powder that will harden the surface, but's it may not be available where you live. I am a master TIG welder to extreme tolerances and if it's weldable I can weld it. (Not bragging, it's the truth)

Now there is a misconception that cast iron can't be welded. True cast iron is very weldable and welds like butter. What is hard to weld is high carbon cast steel, which can have up to 3-4% carbon. To weld that stuff is impossible unless you heat it up until it starts to glow red, I know, I've done it. You can braze it with bronze rod, but for an anvil that probably wouldn't last if you beat the edges. Something as big as an anvil is impractical to preheat that hot. Now with that said you tell your dad to try and stick weld a piece onto it down by the bottom, if the weld cracks it has too much carbon in it. That's OK, your dad should have an oxy-acetylene torch. Tell him to put a rosebud tip on it if he has one, if not use a cutting head then and simply torch the surface until it glows one small area at a time and you will have a hard surface. Just don't let it get too hot. do 1/4 and let it slow cool and come back later and do some more. If it has 2% carbon in it like most cast does it will harden if you just get it up to about a dull red glow. I done that to a cast iron table that had to be harder and to a cheap cast iron anvil for my brother's shop in California.

What kind of a grinder do you have to grind your knives down with? Because as others have said you will have to learn how to grind your knives and handles as well. In Brazil I would guess that some of the nice rosewoods would be easy to get.
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  #28  
Old 08-06-2016, 10:39 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Don't be too worried about the hardness of the block of steel being used as an anvil. It's going to be a lot harder than red hot steel. By the way, a cutler's anvil is basically just that, a block of steel. The lack of a horn and heal with a hardy hole may be a draw back for general forging, they're pretty dispensable for knife making. If you can find a block of steel that's more than a 10XX steel it will he heavier for the same size due to the alloying elements.

Doug


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  #29  
Old 08-06-2016, 11:55 PM
Alphard Alphard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmontg View Post
Since your dad is a welder see if he can get some hardfacing welding rod, either stick or tig, I don't know if they would have the mig wire there, but they should have the stick rod for hardfacing. You simply weld to cover the face of a steel block with that and grind it flat after. I used to hard face plowing discs and the teeth for backhoe scoops and asphalt machinery. If you can't find a cheap cast iron anvil and go with a nice steel block then that's the way to go for a cheap and quick hard surface. There is also case hardening powder that will harden the surface, but's it may not be available where you live. I am a master TIG welder to extreme tolerances and if it's weldable I can weld it. (Not bragging, it's the truth)

Now there is a misconception that cast iron can't be welded. True cast iron is very weldable and welds like butter. What is hard to weld is high carbon cast steel, which can have up to 3-4% carbon. To weld that stuff is impossible unless you heat it up until it starts to glow red, I know, I've done it. You can braze it with bronze rod, but for an anvil that probably wouldn't last if you beat the edges. Something as big as an anvil is impractical to preheat that hot. Now with that said you tell your dad to try and stick weld a piece onto it down by the bottom, if the weld cracks it has too much carbon in it. That's OK, your dad should have an oxy-acetylene torch. Tell him to put a rosebud tip on it if he has one, if not use a cutting head then and simply torch the surface until it glows one small area at a time and you will have a hard surface. Just don't let it get too hot. do 1/4 and let it slow cool and come back later and do some more. If it has 2% carbon in it like most cast does it will harden if you just get it up to about a dull red glow. I done that to a cast iron table that had to be harder and to a cheap cast iron anvil for my brother's shop in California.

What kind of a grinder do you have to grind your knives down with? Because as others have said you will have to learn how to grind your knives and handles as well. In Brazil I would guess that some of the nice rosewoods would be easy to get.
Thanks for those welding tips. Why does welding hardface the metal? Is it because when welding the heated metal goes through a temper-like process?

Is rosewood a kind of dark wood? Where I live the most common and maybe the only hard wood is purpleheart (I think that's the name in english). It's possible to get more variety online I think

Last edited by Alphard; 08-07-2016 at 12:07 AM.
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  #30  
Old 08-07-2016, 12:00 AM
Alphard Alphard is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Lester View Post
Don't be too worried about the hardness of the block of steel being used as an anvil. It's going to be a lot harder than red hot steel. By the way, a cutler's anvil is basically just that, a block of steel. The lack of a horn and heal with a hardy hole may be a draw back for general forging, they're pretty dispensable for knife making. If you can find a block of steel that's more than a 10XX steel it will he heavier for the same size due to the alloying elements.

Doug
I found a company that sells 5160 blocks but a 60kg block is more expensive than a used 100kg steel anvil, and that's very expensive, so not worth it. Probably gonna scavenge junkyards, fingers crossed and maybe I find something cheap.
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