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  #1  
Old 11-18-2014, 09:08 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Randall knife-escutcheon plates

Once again the Delrin handle line as spawned an off-shoot that might interest the Randall community it's own right. So I am copying the relevant posts into this new line. I hope many post pictures and discussion about the Randall knife escutcheon plates.

This is a test for those interested. Why am I posting these two knives in this line? What questions do these knives raise? What questions do they answer? How are those answers related to a subject covered in this line?

OK here is the hint... this knife, possible construction date, md-late 1960.


Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 02:45 PM.
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  #2  
Old 11-18-2014, 09:08 PM
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Post reply by dax0007

Hey Jack. Well i failed the test...
Both look to be 1960s.. Handle material?? Delrin white and some sort of black micarta or possible black delrin??

Not sure what the point is.. However I have never seen a randall i dont like

HERE IS A REAL TREAT!! Wish i had 3000$ cause i am sure thats what the bid will end at. If it was a BRASSBACK THORPE.. I would go over board and spend the money... I got a think with the brassback

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181580061230...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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  #3  
Old 11-18-2014, 09:11 PM
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Thanks for checking in Don and that "King Faisel II set" is a beauty... but differs from the original primarily in the escutcheon plate size and shape. Perhaps someday someone will Goggle and use this line for further research...

I have not found this mentioned in the Randall literature, but it seems that most or all of the escutcheon plates installed prior to about '60-'61 were ad hoc, oblong, no true uniform shape. Then about 1960-61, the shop seems to have adopted a uniform oval-football (rugby type) shape for the plates ... first silver and then according to Wickersham, about 1965 brass became available (but was not yet listed in the catalog in 1966).

This may be just an impression not actual fact, but ... my Delrin handled 3-7 has an oval silver escutcheon plate which makes it interesting to see if those type escutcheon plates were being installed in 1960 when it has been projected that the knife was made. So ... here is a chronology of escutcheon plates through the critical years...as best I could locate pictures bracketing that period. (It is surprising how few escutcheon plates are out there).

Early '50s



Gary Clinton James Jones 1955



1959, second 13-6 ever made. (note: inscription on plate has 1958 date) This dating was fully addressed and documented by Ron Mathews in an excellent treatise on another board.



Zimmerman, Stockman sheath, 1960-1961

2-5 with Heiser-Randall sheath (why this is likely a Heiser-Randall and not a Johnson would require considerable space to prove. So for now, allow me to just declare it), knife dated by several knowledgeable vintage Randall collectors on another board to '59-'60 (but with typically confusing and contradictory opinions because of the Randall stamp on the Heiser sheath)



NOTE: the time span between the above knife and the one pictured below probably covers the change from ad hoc oblong escutcheon plates to standardized oval-rugby football shape

Ron Mathew's knife and description: "very early '60s because of choll cut," ... oval escutcheon plate, Heiser-Randall 'west' stamp on sheath



12-9 Bowie, 1963



Bowie from Wickersham book, early mid-60s



Gary Clinton early mid 60s



1-8 teeth



It looks as if the critical change in the shape of the escutcheon plate occurred just about mid-late 1960, perhaps overlapping into 1961. Therefore, use of the oval plate on the Delrin 3-7 was possibly consistent with a production date in 1960. More data would help, especially pictures of early knives with escutcheon plates. Given that, perhaps the whole thesis would fall apart, which is not a bad thing if it is data driven.

I wonder what else could we look at? How about the fonts on the escutcheon plates? It sometimes surprises me how little actual methodical cataloging of the characteristics of early Randalls has been done, or at least published.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 02:50 PM.
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  #4  
Old 11-18-2014, 09:13 PM
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Post reply by dax0007

WOW JACK stunning info.. making me lust to start collecting escutcheon.. if i win the Florida 46million lottery tonight..boy would i make every Randall collector happy cause i would buy up everything... Let me see lump sum of 46mil would be about 28mil.. 500k on old randalls, 500k on some ruanas, 500k to blow.. Wife would get 1/2 of that so she would get 13mil..
Still leaves me with enough to donate 5million to some good children/animal charties.. live off the rest.. Boy i spent that money and have not won it yet! I would even give knifenetwork a makeover too.

well i will let u know tomorrow if i win...,LOL....

Those pictures are stunning especially the Jame Jones escutcheon plated randall.. just WOW!..

THis could be a great topic. i dont think iever seen any one go into the history of the escutcheon plates...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post reply by Moosehead - Moderator

This is fantastic stuff you're posting here, Jack!

Thanks for all of your efforts in helping to shed light on the complicated world of older Randalls.

Cheers!

David

Last edited by Jacknola; 11-18-2014 at 09:21 PM.
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  #5  
Old 11-18-2014, 09:15 PM
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Cruising the net looking for escutcheon plates, I found this interesting and beautiful knife. Story can be read at this link, worth the read:

http://svalbardrepublic.org/ebay/randall-boxed0910.htm

Because of the (probably ?) late 1962-63 (or so) date of the knife, it doesn't really sharpen the question of the timing of the change in escutcheon plate shape. But what an interesting knife. It has a fairly rare Johnson brown button sheath*, no model numbers on back, which probably dates the knife pretty precisely to late '62, early '63. This of course would be one of the first sheaths made by Johnson.

Note the oval escutcheon plate and note that the font of the initials are not pixelated. The plate looks like might be brass, but brass plates supposedly were not available until 1965-66 or so...(but this may not be brass, possibly just some oxidation on silver or some protective lubricant - see last pictures). Note also the odd stamp on the ricosso, "WDR 4". All in all, well worth posting in this line.














* this sheath has most of the characteristics of an early Johnson brown button... but the stitching seems poor.

Also interesting, a magazine article about Randalls was inside the box. The article was written by George X. Sand. (He is also the author who started the whole "Bermuda Triangle" myth in an piece he wrote in the 1950s.) After some research, I discovered that the Randall article in the box originally appeared in "Ford Truck Times," Summer, 1969. Here is a link to that article:

http://www.fordification.com/library...g2_itemId=7393

Regards, Jack Williams

Last edited by Jacknola; 10-28-2020 at 02:23 PM.
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  #6  
Old 11-18-2014, 09:17 PM
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Post reply by ironwood nut

Jack

WDR are the initials of "BO" Randall, I don't know about the 4

Peter

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Post reply by Jacknola

Thank you Peter. I am embarrassed I didn't realize those were Mr. Randall's initials. This "WDR 4" stamp makes for another mystery and interesting sidebar. And I think that presentatation-type 7-5 (?) with the rosewood handle and box is terrific. I wonder where it is?

I'm a little surprised that no one has asked why I think that model "B" sheath with that 2-4 boot knife is made by Heiser, not Johnson. But ... that would reopen the Heiser vs Johnson sheath line. Perhaps I'll update my thoughts on model "B" sheaths there sometime in the future.
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  #7  
Old 11-18-2014, 09:19 PM
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The escutcheon plate posts were originally intended to provide rationale for the dating of the 3-7 Delrin handled knife. There is enough data now for the discussion to be made independent of the Delrin handle line. Here is one more escutcheon data point.

Into every theory about vintage Randalls a little anomaly must fall. Here is a knife that would be regarded as very early '60s at first glance. It appears in Hunts Randall Military Models under the "Carried Knives" section, p. 170. Unfortunately, the owner of this field knife was KIA on August 8, 1972 in Vietnam. The book notes that the knife is now the property of collector, Evan Nappen.



Here is what Hunt writes about this knife:

"As collectors we recognize the knife as a Model 1 with eight-inch blade and an ebony handle with nickel silver nameplate where his initials are prominently scrolled...

"...Note the seven-spacer arrangement at the brass guard and the rear spacer stack. The blade grind appears to be very early 1960s..."


The apparent disconnect between the age of the sheath, the knife, and the KIA date of the soldier calls for some thought. In truth, we do not know who this soldier was. He could have been a long-time vet who acquired his knife a decade before, but his E-4 rank belies that theory. Certainly the knife was customized for him with his name on the blade and initials on the plate. The sheath is definitely post-1963 while the blade stamp is a type-1 pre-1966.

The age characteristics of the knife fits an early escutcheon plate profile. I would speculate that this knife was made late 50s-early '60s, a time of slow sales for Randall fighters. I suspect this knife was dusted off, provided to the soldier much later. At least that is a plausible story and strangely, tracks the original supposition of "The Magic Randal" storyline. And this account plausibly acknowledges the very early '60s characteristics of the knife and the apparently younger sheath, and probable youth of the soldier-owner.

As an aside, notice the similarity of this APFK and the previously posted 2-5 boot knife, posted again here.




Regards, Jack Williams

I hope others will post pictures of their knives with escutcheon plates. Never can tell when pure data might lead to something. And I think escutcheon plates look great on a knife ... and compared to the numbers of vintage Randalls there are actually not that many with escutcheon plates.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 02:51 PM.
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  #8  
Old 11-19-2014, 07:33 PM
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Adding to the escutcheon data base, these two incredible knives linked by Don previously.







These are really impressive. Huge thick guard, Moore sheaths, x-large leather spacers, relatively vertical tear-drop shaped flutes with large individual tines, tear-drop shaped flutes on the coolie cap... plus the oblong escutcheon plate. That is a very early Bowie and 13-12,... beautiful.

Note that even before the production of the King Fiasel II set, Randall had gone away from using the thick leather spacers which were apparently only used for a short time at the very beginning of Bowie production in 1953.

What is odd is that the guard does not have the extension lugs braised on the ends. I've never seen that but those lugs were apparently first offered in a catalog insert after initial production. There really hasn't been much published about Randall Bowies and most of what is known has been passed down. The best book that pictorially covers Randall Bowies that I've found is Hunts Randall Military Models, good pictures and information. Gaddis does a pretty thorough job in recounting the initial design and production of the Bowies and Wickersham's reference also has interesting information.

"Dating a Randall Bowie" might be the only chat line I've seen that dealt with Bowies much,and it was mostly concerned with coolie caps and collars. Some good things were posted there from solid collectors who generally do not participate on line.
http://knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63508
Some additional information about Bowies, especially pictures of historic Bowies were posted in this line.
http://knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61540

The oval escutcheon plate presumably introduced in about 1960-61 was supposedly initially only offered in silver (as was its oblong predecessor). In about 1965 some brass plates began showing up but the catalog did not offer brass until the 18th printing. That is also the first time the catalog referenced "oval" plates, though they had been the standard for many years. Below are the relevent portions of the 17th and 18th catalogs.

17th catalog Sep. 1965



18th catalog Oct. 1967



After it was offered, it appears that the brass plate rapidly became the customer favorite...(based only on my own casual observation, not science). To illustrate the apparent popularity of the brass plate when it was introduced, here are a couple of interesting knives from the latter part of the 1960s. The model 14 was one I acquired after returning from Vietnam . I had the plate scratch-engraved to commemorate. I haven't seen many model 14s with an escutcheon plate.

Model 14 Vietnam era, about 1967-68





This is a particularly beautiful late 1960s 2-8 owned by an old S.F. comrade, Dr. Louis (Lonny) Holmes.



Regards, Jack Williams

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 03:23 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-20-2014, 12:02 AM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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Where's the Randall Logo on the Smith in the first picture?
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  #10  
Old 11-21-2014, 09:39 AM
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Good point about the stamp Ronnie. I guess I failed to notice it, blame blindness caused by being focused on only one facet, the escutcheon plate.

After you pointed this out, at first I thought that the picture was retouched (the ad refers to many scratches, etc., that are not visiable in the picture ... therefore assumed it could have been enhanced). I have little doubt that it is a Randall paired with the 13-12... but in the close ups cannot see the stamp. I supose someone could ask the dealer about it. Thanks for pointing this out.

http://www.arizonacustomknives.com/p...msPerPage%3D12

Last edited by Jacknola; 11-21-2014 at 10:25 AM.
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  #11  
Old 11-22-2014, 04:38 AM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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I totally agree with you Jack with regards to it being a Randall but I certainly see no logo.
Ronnie
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Old 11-22-2014, 04:52 AM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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I looked at their web site and enlarged the picture.....the knife doesn't have the Randall Trademark. So I don't know Jack. It sure looks like a Randall. They say it's a Randall but I have never seen a Randall with out the trademark. I tried to send them an email but I couldn't. Have to have a gmail address and I couldn't pull that off.
Ronnie
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Old 11-22-2014, 03:35 PM
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Jacknola and Jeepster what are u guys thinking?

Tried to get you guys attention!!

Man Jeepster you are on the MONEY i did not see that EITHER!! That Randall bowie with NO
RANDALL LOGO?? Crazy...

Here is something else VERY INTERESTING.. GO ahead call me crazy, but look at this beauty it sold for under 800 and its a 50s RANDALL TOOTHPICK with IVORY AND THICK LEATHER SPACERS...

GUESS WHAT-- NO LOGO EITHER...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,, It has the correct ERA sheath.. NO DOUBT its a Randall cause look how its made unless it was made by a Randall SHOP guy and sold under the table....

Something is FISHY!!

LOOK AT THIS FAT IVORY, 1/4 LEATHER WASHER.. MASSIVE BRASS GUARD.. How in the hell did i miss this one! 800$?? I did not buy it cause NO RANDALL STAMP, but someone knew it was a HOT ITEM!
(Jack u might want to catalog these PICTURES and starta NEW THREAD-- THE RANDALLS WITH NO NAME with FAT LEATHER WASHERS--LOL... Might be interesting.. We have seen 2 of these in 2 months.. So i will be track ing them.. maybe we can come up with more..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KNIFE-13-12-...p2047675.l2557
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Old 11-22-2014, 03:53 PM
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I believe both the Smitty and Toothpick are legit knives despite no logo. At the same time, there are fakes out there. Here are pics of a Thorp that fits that category. It came on the market 5-7 years ago:




There was also a fake 14 that came up at the same time with the same "JMT" initials on the ricasso:



Best,
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  #15  
Old 11-22-2014, 09:40 PM
dax0007 dax0007 is offline
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Cool

wBl BOblade ...thank you for sharing that fake model 14 and thorpe..
very interesting I've actually never have handled or seen a fake randall before ..

looks interesting I can definitely see a difference though however it's easy for me to say that since you were kinda enough to tell me they're fake.. the thorpe has a productionlook like a odd plasric material fake ivory in any event thanks for sharing those two pictures I've definitely learned something again I I've never had the opportunity to handle a fake Randall so when you tell me its fake its easy for me to judge.. to pick out the differences I wonder if I would have been able to tell without knowing.. we should start a fake randall thead
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