Hello, I'm new to smithing

[Alphard]

Hello everyone

I've been studying stuff related to blacksmithing online for about 6 months and I'm feeling confident to practice now. In 4 months I'm gonna buy my tools so before that I'll try gathering more knowledge and hopefully you'll be able to help me. I want to craft axes and swords because I love them.
So for my first questions:

1) I've decided for a gas forge because it seems to me better for a beginner, simpler to use too. Saves time I can use to practice smithing so when I get decent I'll be able to use a coal or charcoal forge easier (if I decide to). My question is: Are there any specific gas forge details for bladesmithing? Most gas forge videos I've seen are for small, convenient forges... I wonder if a sword gas forge would have specific adaptations for swordcraft...

2) While we're at it, can you post to me pictures, videos or tutorials of really good gas forges for swords? Moneywise I'm kinda comfortable because I've been saving for a long time and a good forge seems a good, safe investment. You can post coal/charcoal forges too if you want

3) A gas forge is dangerous, regarding explosions? I've had a gas stove in the kitchen for more than 20 years and I still didn't blow up my house, but I guess always good to ask...

4) Here where I live I either get a 50kg cast iron anvil, or I buy an imported one paying an absurd in shipment and exchange rates... So I've decided to look around for a steel block to use as an anvil. What size and weight should I aim for? And are there any companies that sell stuff like 100kg steel blocks over the internet, ebay-style? Cause I didn't find any researching, but maybe I just don't know where to look...

That's all for now, thank

[jmccustomknives]

Welcome. Lets address those questions.
The amount of fuel a gas forge uses is in direct relation to the space inside. The more space, the more fuel (burners ie:btu's) it takes to heat it. There's also the issue of forge welding, can the forge you want do that? Because of those issues most makers will have more than one forge. A lot (myself included) will have both gas and coal as each forge has it strengths.

Ray has a great video on building a gas forge, they aren't hard.

3. Your playing with fire.

4. Cast iron anvils aren't anvils, they are boat anchors.

Everyone want's to make swords, the movies make it seem so easy. Start with small hunting knives, learn how to grind the bevels and fit and finish. Most important, learn the heat treat. You'll find smithing isn't nearly as romantic as they make it seem. It takes sweat, blood and quite a few burns.

Ray does a Sunday chat room, drop in on him. Ask questions.

[Crex]

JM pretty much nailed it. A few additional comments:
#3 - big diff between a gas cook stove and a gas smithing forge. Main one being stove is low pressure and forge is higher pressure. As long as you use good common sense, install quick cut off valves in line next to your fuel source but easily acessable, pay close attention to all connections for possible leaks, and don't do anything stupid you should be ok. Use the "wheel" don't try to re-invent it until you have some experience under your belt.
#4 - Sometimes you can go to big steel yards and get "drops" in pretty good sizes. Drops are waste cut-offs from dimensional cuts. I have one that is 168# that I use for general reduction work. Works just fine as all the mass is directly below the hammer unlike most anvils. Took a while to work-harden the surface but it's all good now. You are talking about swords and axes = lot of steel mass to move/work so you will need some where in the range of 200#s or more to even come close to working with any efficiency - 300# would be better.
#1 - Swords/axes take a lot of heat source and larger door access (in forge) this will equal greater fuel consumption - a blown forge will work better for this. Also you need to figure on working outside as this kind of forging, the forge will suck all the oxygen out of a room or garage. Out side also reduces the chance of jepordizing your homeowner's insurance policy.

JM is spot on with his advice to start small and learn the basics of making a quality blade, good smithing skills, and fire/heat control before jumping on the big stuff.

ps - fill out your profile, you may only be a few miles away from an established experienced smith you can visit and learn from.

[Ed Caffrey]

1) I've decided for a gas forge because it seems to me better for a beginner, simpler to use too. Saves time I can use to practice smithing so when I get decent I'll be able to use a coal or charcoal forge easier (if I decide to). My question is: Are there any specific gas forge details for bladesmithing? Most gas forge videos I've seen are for small, convenient forges... I wonder if a sword gas forge would have specific adaptations for swordcraft...

My first recommendation is to temper your expectations. The enthusiasm is admirable, but swords are NOT the place to start. It takes a great deal of skill and experience to produce a quality sword. In 30+ years of being a Bladesmith, I've done just about a dozen swords....the last one was approximately an 18 month project. It takes time and experience to develop the skills necessary to be capable of producing such items.

Generally speaking, gas forges are far better for Bladesmithing then coal. It's unlikely that you will find a forge that is suitable for sword size work on the commercial market.... likely you will have to build it yourself. There are few pictures/videos of "sword" forges, simply because it is a very specialized aspect of the Bladesmithing craft, with a very limited market, and therefore a very limited number of people who specialize in the field.

4) Here where I live I either get a 50kg cast iron anvil, or I buy an imported one paying an absurd in shipment and exchange rates... So I've decided to look around for a steel block to use as an anvil. What size and weight should I aim for? And are there any companies that sell stuff like 100kg steel blocks over the internet, ebay-style? Cause I didn't find any researching, but maybe I just don't know where to look...

As has been said, a cast iron anvil is good for nothing other them a "boat anchor". A good quality anvil is critical to any forging shop. Working with less then a quality anvil creates an unending number of problems. Taking the time/effort to locate and purchase a quality anvil will pay untold dividends. Choosing a cheap, low quality anvil will handicap you forever.

Finally, any type of forge work is a LEARNED skill. You can't gain experience doing research or reading about it. You have to get in there and practice, practice, practice. As I said, I've been doing it for 30+ years, and every day that I walk into the shop, I learn something brand new.

[Alphard]

Originally Posted by jmccustomknives

Welcome. Lets address those questions.
The amount of fuel a gas forge uses is in direct relation to the space inside. The more space, the more fuel (burners ie:btu's) it takes to heat it. There's also the issue of forge welding, can the forge you want do that? Because of those issues most makers will have more than one forge. A lot (myself included) will have both gas and coal as each forge has it strengths.

Ray has a great video on building a gas forge, they aren't hard.

3. Your playing with fire.

4. Cast iron anvils aren't anvils, they are boat anchors.

Everyone want's to make swords, the movies make it seem so easy. Start with small hunting knives, learn how to grind the bevels and fit and finish. Most important, learn the heat treat. You'll find smithing isn't nearly as romantic as they make it seem. It takes sweat, blood and quite a few burns.

Ray does a Sunday chat room, drop in on him. Ask questions.

Who is Ray and where is the chat room?

[Alphard]

Originally Posted by Crex

JM pretty much nailed it. A few additional comments:
#3 - big diff between a gas cook stove and a gas smithing forge. Main one being stove is low pressure and forge is higher pressure. As long as you use good common sense, install quick cut off valves in line next to your fuel source but easily acessable, pay close attention to all connections for possible leaks, and don't do anything stupid you should be ok. Use the "wheel" don't try to re-invent it until you have some experience under your belt.
#4 - Sometimes you can go to big steel yards and get "drops" in pretty good sizes. Drops are waste cut-offs from dimensional cuts. I have one that is 168# that I use for general reduction work. Works just fine as all the mass is directly below the hammer unlike most anvils. Took a while to work-harden the surface but it's all good now. You are talking about swords and axes = lot of steel mass to move/work so you will need some where in the range of 200#s or more to even come close to working with any efficiency - 300# would be better.
#1 - Swords/axes take a lot of heat source and larger door access (in forge) this will equal greater fuel consumption - a blown forge will work better for this. Also you need to figure on working outside as this kind of forging, the forge will suck all the oxygen out of a room or garage. Out side also reduces the chance of jepordizing your homeowner's insurance policy.

JM is spot on with his advice to start small and learn the basics of making a quality blade, good smithing skills, and fire/heat control before jumping on the big stuff.

ps - fill out your profile, you may only be a few miles away from an established experienced smith you can visit and learn from.

What did you mean by work harden? Like tempering it or just grinding to plane it?
I'm gonna follow the advices and start small, at least I can also get a smaller forge which will be less consuming

[Alphard]

Originally Posted by Ed Caffrey

My first recommendation is to temper your expectations. The enthusiasm is admirable, but swords are NOT the place to start. It takes a great deal of skill and experience to produce a quality sword. In 30+ years of being a Bladesmith, I've done just about a dozen swords....the last one was approximately an 18 month project. It takes time and experience to develop the skills necessary to be capable of producing such items.

Generally speaking, gas forges are far better for Bladesmithing then coal. It's unlikely that you will find a forge that is suitable for sword size work on the commercial market.... likely you will have to build it yourself. There are few pictures/videos of "sword" forges, simply because it is a very specialized aspect of the Bladesmithing craft, with a very limited market, and therefore a very limited number of people who specialize in the field.



As has been said, a cast iron anvil is good for nothing other them a "boat anchor". A good quality anvil is critical to any forging shop. Working with less then a quality anvil creates an unending number of problems. Taking the time/effort to locate and purchase a quality anvil will pay untold dividends. Choosing a cheap, low quality anvil will handicap you forever.

Finally, any type of forge work is a LEARNED skill. You can't gain experience doing research or reading about it. You have to get in there and practice, practice, practice. As I said, I've been doing it for 30+ years, and every day that I walk into the shop, I learn something brand new.

A friend mentioned to me about iron anvils with steel surface. Is that possible? If I weld a steel board on top of a cast iron anvil will it work good?

And if anyone know more about this iron/steel anvil thing, share your thoughts. Videos explaiining about it or teaching how to do it would be nice.

One new question for today is: compared to a knife how difficult is forging a hammer? I see online that smiths usually forge their own tools, I see the benefits of that. I was wondering if forging a hammer would be good practice and doable for a beginner.

Thanks for all the help. I still have many questions but I feel like I'll solve them with patience

[Ray Rogers]

The Chat Room is explained in the Sticky threads at the top of the forum.

Iron anvils with steel faces were built by forge welding the entire steel face to the entire iron surface at one time. It takes a foundry setup to do this type of thing. You can't just weld around the edges of the steel face and expect it to work well.

There is no point in forging you own tools until you use the regular commercial tools long enough to know what you don't like about them. Some smiths forge some of their tools, there is no point in spending time building a common tool that you probably already own because you would need one to build the new one. Nothing wrong with making your own tools, we all do it, but wait until you have a reason or the results won't be worth the effort....

[dtec1]

yeh I deffinitly agree start small, when I started it wasn't size that I wanted to achieve like you but I thought for my first real knife "lets make Damascus" yeh same thing over shooting my abilities and it came out ok but it took forever a lot of wasted time and frustration on one step forward then 2 back kinda thing...even now that I am getting decent with knives I have not tried a full size sword I did a "small" sword and it was a challenge....for the most part I do stock removal (and I am surprised no one has suggested this OR maybe I missed it) but stock removal might be better to practice and learn some of the skills first then try to forge even if you forge a blade you are still going to have to grind some of it after to make everything nice and even and look nice. and if you don't know how then you just screwed up all that effort on forging the knife or sword. just my opinion. as far as the anvil like I said I don't do much forging but my bro in law works at a train yard he got me a large piece of train track it works great the top is slightly curved I left half as is and grinded the other half flat it works great. again make a knife first practice on scrap or mild steel then make the jump to some steel of a known type. IF you do a sword don't you want it to be awesome I would but if you attempt (almost anything not just knife making) you are going to make mistakes. if your using scrap steel that sword is not going to preform like a know steel would and if you make a first attempt with know steel and make mistakes that steel cost money see what I mean. gain the skill,,(practice) learn a steel, prefect it, then step up that's how I have been doing this (with everyone here advice of course) I remember when I started some one said we don't recommend newbies to go crazy with some design that takes a lot of skill to learn because if they mess it up they will get discouraged and maybe decide this skill is not worth doing and quit it makes sense, I would feel much more accomplishment if I did a REALLY good knife than a half a** sword.. just food for thought

[jmccustomknives]

Sometime Sunday you'll see a thread pop up called Sunday chat, it will tell you what time. Just click the link.
As far as welding a top on cast, yes you can. But that takes it's on skill set to pull off. Getting it to work is pretty difficult as cast iron is prone to cracking and the rods required to do the job are expensive. By the time you've spent all the money and time to do it right you could have bought something better and been working.

Work hardening isn't like heat treating, basically your compacting by the hammer the crystal structure. In time this makes the surface of the material harder, but it doesn't come to the level of heat treated tool steel.

Forging tools like hammers is more of a blacksmith thing than a bladesmith. Although you can learn, and there's nothing wrong with it, to make your own tools. Like Ray said, most of us have better things to do with our time than make tools that are already available. There are some custom tooling you'll need to make in time but learn the basics. Like a musical instrument, your not going to play a song until you learn the notes.

[Alphard]

Originally Posted by Ray Rogers

The Chat Room is explained in the Sticky threads at the top of the forum.

Iron anvils with steel faces were built by forge welding the entire steel face to the entire iron surface at one time. It takes a foundry setup to do this type of thing. You can't just weld around the edges of the steel face and expect it to work well.

There is no point in forging you own tools until you use the regular commercial tools long enough to know what you don't like about them. Some smiths forge some of their tools, there is no point in spending time building a common tool that you probably already own because you would need one to build the new one. Nothing wrong with making your own tools, we all do it, but wait until you have a reason or the results won't be worth the effort....

I'm a newb so sorry if I say rubbish, but for exxample if I have a 5mm x 30cm x 30 cm square steel plate and 9 iron cubes of 10cm x 10cm x 10 cm, would it be possible to heat a block and plate to welding point, put the cube on the plate and hammer it, then heat a second cube and repeat till you have assembled it all? Like LEGO or something...

What if the cubes were made of steel, would it work?

[Ray Rogers]

I can't say that it wouldn't work, so much depends on your skill level and creativity. But, why bother? There are usually plenty of large steel chunks around if you look for them. They don't even need to be all that large - a 4 or 5 inch square bar that is a foot or two long can be turned into a functional anvil...

[Alphard]

Originally Posted by Ray Rogers

I can't say that it wouldn't work, so much depends on your skill level and creativity. But, why bother? There are usually plenty of large steel chunks around if you look for them. They don't even need to be all that large - a 4 or 5 inch square bar that is a foot or two long can be turned into a functional anvil...

It's because my father is a mechanic (weld and industrial kind). He doesn't know much of forging besides basic theory, but he can help me with some stuff. So I thought depending on what it is he could help me, and if a quality anvil can be made with some effort it would be worth it... As far as quality can go within our reach anyway. But the biggest reason why I bother is really curiosity. I saw this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYr-gQwQ_3Q

He's crafting a 400 pound anvil by welding plates which in my expertise level is easy to do. But then you brought the point of welding not being that simple, and since there wasn't a commentary on that video like "hey dude welded anvil like that suck", I thought well there's a point I wanna confirm, for knowledge sake.

[Doug Lester]

The good point on the web is that anyone can publish. The biggest draw back is anyone can publish, especially the people who don't know what they are talking about. The person who made that video doesn't understand how an anvil works. Those plates only being connected at the sides is not going to allow for the work energy of the hammer blows to be reflected by the anvil. Any anvil, more realistically and anvil shaped object, made that way will deaden the energy applied by the hammer and work you to death. So, if you need to read it, Dude, an anvil made that way really sucks.

To go back to what Ray said, I found an 87 lb block of H13 steel, I think it's 7X6X4" that I got from a supplier in St. Louis and as I recall it cost me $140, shipping included, and that was about four years ago. It out performs my 110 lb Mexican POS by a long shot.

There was a YouTube video that showed a new steel face being forge, not stick or gas, welded to a cast iron or wrought iron body. As I recall they build a large charcoal forge to heat up the body and plate. It took then something like seven hours to get the body hot enough to take the weld. They had to pick up the anvil bade with long steel pipes to manipulate it and have a small team of smiths set the weld with sledge hammers. It was just one of those "let's see if we can do it" things thought up by a smithing club. Definitely dangerous and definitely not worth it.

Doug

[Doug Lester]

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