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Heat Treating and Metallurgy Discussion of heat treatment and metallurgy in knife making.

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  #1  
Old 04-15-2012, 10:05 PM
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CJS Knives CJS Knives is offline
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To BUILD or To BUY??

ok i want to get a propane forge for heat treating my own blades. until now i have been sending them out, and i am fed up!

i have been doing a lot of looking around, and watching YT videos. there are TONS of info out there to make your own.

what do you guys suggest? spend $300-400 and buy one, or nickle and dime and make my own?

do i go 1 burner or 2?

what else do i need to know?

thanks,
Jeff


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Old 04-16-2012, 07:43 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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First, the steel types you use will dictate what you can do....if everything is carbon/tool steels, you can do your own.....if you're into stainless steels, it's going to require a digitally controlled heat treat oven.

OK, that being said, building your own is the only way to go in my opinion. The ONE thing to STAY AWAY FROM is square, or rectangular designs in a forge. Next, placement of the burner(s) is CRITICAL....although there are several commercially available circular type forges out there, it befuddles me why the makers don't pay any attention to how they mount/direct the burners! In most cases the forges with the screwed up burner placement/angle, is no better than the square ones that are 1/2 the cost!

Circular design, with a burner that enters the chamber at a tangent, and produces an indirect flame...meaning that the flame pattern follows the interior contour of of the forge. KIS......KEEP IT SIMPLE! A piece of 8" well casing/pipe, enough 1" ka-wool, and a simple venturi burner (that you can easily build yourself).

Don't let yourself get caught up in the "PID controlled" forge thing..... read this: http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=58287

Here's some examples of a simple, single burner, venturi type forge, that has been used in my shop for the past 20 years.......pay particular attention to how the burner enters the forge body, and the flame pattern it produces.....







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Old 04-16-2012, 11:13 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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The only thing that I can add to what Ed said is that it's not that hard, especially if you build a blown burner for the forge.

Doug


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Old 04-16-2012, 05:01 PM
Hayden H Hayden H is offline
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Heres how to buld a burner rather simply, don't need much other than maybe needing a flare lathed/ordered
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:02 PM
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thanks for the info Ed, i always appreciate your input.

i will be doing carbon steel blades like O-1 and 1095.

i have the money to order one online, so that is not the issue, and in the past i have learned its just better to buy it if you can.

since reading your post, i have looked into buying online, and noticed that a lot of these forges offered are square in design. you say to not have one that is square. why do you recommend against this, why do they sell square if its no good?

a couple that i am considering.....
http://www.diamondbackironworks.com/...75/4583812.htm

http://www.majesticforge.com/knifema..._products.html

thanks,
Jeff


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Old 04-16-2012, 09:33 PM
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Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
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I'm guessing square is easier to produce. Circle is better because the flame swirls and distributes more evenly. Not so in a square cavity.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:46 PM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Quote:
you say to not have one that is square. why do you recommend against this
A "square" forge, equals hot and cold spots, no matter were, or how the burner is placed in/into the forge.
I took a look at both of the links you posted, and in both cases, you have a square design, with the burner situated in such a way that the flame will be directly on any piece of steel placed into the forge. While this won't create any huge issues if heating ONLY mild steel, it creates multiple, and great complications for carbon/tool/alloy steels.

Quote:
why do they sell square if its no good?
I've asked myself that question for years! The conclusion that I've arrived at is....
Most of the outfits offering these forges for sale are...

#1 Have absolutely no knowledge or experience when it comes to forging anything other than mild steel...meaning they simply do not realize or understand how poorly those type forges are for forging carbon/tool/alloy steels.

#2 They place more emphasis on how cheaply/easily they can build something they call a forge, and are more concerned about the "bottom line" then if their product works well for it's advertised purpose.

#3. The major industry that forges are commercially built for is the Farrier (horse shoeing) industry....Horse shoes in general are about the cheapest grade of mild steel imaginable....the material and it's end use are simply not effected by using these types of forges like carbon/tool/alloy steels are.

It might be hard to understand at this point, but just about anybody who has used this type of forge, and done any destructive testing of blades forged in them, will tell you that there are many detrimental effects caused to "blade steels" by these types of forges.....warped blades during heat treat, different grain structures throughout blades, and forge welds (when making damascus) that simply won't work. It's all due to how unevenly these type forges heat the steel. It's not at all uncommon in square design forges to have several hundred degree differences between where the burner flame is directed, and areas a couple of inches away. Yes, it's that critical when dealing with "blade" steels.

Finally, this is no disrespect to those who are general "Blacksmiths", I started out my career as a Blacksmith, and later progressed into a Bladesmith.....so I know the differences. The difference? Blacksmiths are taught that it's always best to get the steel as hot as possible, so that it is easier to manipulate......and most, if being truly honest, will admit that they don't know, or care to know anything about forging carbon/alloy steels because of how "difficult" or "how careful" one must be with the "heats".
Both of those forges that you indicated were designed and built by self proclaimed "Blacksmiths"...and although I could be wrong, my instincts tell me that neither thought of anything other than forging strictly mild steel when designing/building them. The only reason you see them labeled as "Knifemaker forge" is to hopefully appeal to a wider audience.
There are a few circular designed forges that are commercially available, but I am yet to see any of them that have burners correctly positioned. Based on all of that, my opinion is to either build your own forge for Bladesmithing, or at least have one built by someone who is an experienced Bladesmith.


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Old 04-16-2012, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Caffrey View Post
I've asked myself that question for years! The conclusion that I've arrived at is....
Most of the outfits offering these forges for sale are...

#1 Have absolutely no knowledge or experience when it comes to forging anything other than mild steel...meaning they simply do not realize or understand how poorly those type forges are for forging carbon/tool/alloy steels.

#2 They place more emphasis on how cheaply/easily they can build something they call a forge, and are more concerned about the "bottom line" then if their product works well for it's advertised purpose.

#3. The major industry that forges are commercially built for is the Farrier (horse shoeing) industry....Horse shoes in general are about the cheapest grade of mild steel imaginable....the material and it's end use are simply not effected by using these types of forges like carbon/tool/alloy steels are.

.
Ed,
i dont mean to argue with you, (as i am sure you are correct) but i am just trying to learn about this whole process.

this is taken from the Diamondback Ironworks website.....
http://www.diamondbackironworks.com/...83d5b3dca.html

The Knifemaker/Welding Models are incredible. The heat output is amazing. These are the hottest, most efficient Forges in the line-up. There is alot of talk about using a round shell to get an even heat, and some manufacturers are doing that. Well, in order to get that even heat, the burner needs to enter the firebox with the flame running along the interior wall in order for the flame velocity to circulate the heat evenly. With this set-up, the firebox does heat relatively evenly, problem is, the second that a billet is put into one of these round forges, the circulation is interrupted, and it no longer heats evenly... So there's the problem, they heat very evenly, as long as they're left empty! It's just more hype, there's one manufacturer who runs his burners nearly straight up in his round forges, which completely negates the imaginary benefit of the round shape to begin with! Another question... I see alot of "Knifemaker" forges being sold for welding billets, and they all use Ceramic Fiber. Ceramic Fiber is great stuff, but not in a Forge Welding environment. Ceramic Fiber reacts to welding flux the same way Cotton candy reacts to water, it just melts away... So imagine the amount of time you'll spend repairing all that damage (the ITC 100 does little to slow that process down, and has a tendency to flake or peel off, creating maintanance issues of its own). Ask yourself this as well, how difficult is it to access the ceramic liner in one of those round forges? If you have to reach in through an opening that can be a real pain. Do you have to take the forge apart, or does it even come apart? Those issues are resolved with our Knifemaker Forges. The floor is flux resistant 3200 degree dense ceramic, the walls and ceilings are Vacuum Formed Insulating Ceramic. If it does get damaged, remove a few screws, lift the lid, lift out the ceiling insulation board and replace the wall board, yes, it really is that easy. These were designed from a working smiths perspective. Not only are they designed to perform, but they are designed to last! A good performing forge is nice, until you find out it's an expensive, all day job to reline, or worse yet, getting stuck with a ceramic fiber lined "welding" forge that you have to make repairs to every time you finish a billet... Like I said, look at all the factors, check out our competition, do your homework. We think if you do, you'll come back to us when it's time to buy that new forge!


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Old 04-17-2012, 08:17 AM
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Opinions can of course vary widely.....There are many things in that paragraph that are simply nothing more than deception. Much of it is nothing more than speculation or "guessing".
I laughed out loud when I read:
Quote:
the second that a billet is put into one of these round forges, the circulation is interrupted, and it no longer heats evenly... So there's the problem, they heat very evenly, as long as they're left empty!
That's obviously spoken/written by someone who has absolutely no experience with a properly built circular forge.

There is so much BS and half truths in that paragraph, I won't even try to address it all.
It's nothing more than a sales pitch.

Jeff, You have to do what best suits you and your situation. I've given my input, and folks can either take it or leave it.
About the only additional information I can add is that I have dealt with a huge number of people over the years, who have purchased these type of forges for Bladesmithing use, been completely unhappy with them, and sought something else. On the other side of the coin, those who have started with a properly built circular type forge have never had a complaint.
Generally speaking, those who have never used anything except a square forge for Bladesmithing are happy....until they use or see someone else using a circular type forge...then they start to recognize all the shortcomings/issues of a square design for Bladesmithing.


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Old 04-17-2012, 12:15 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Ok, that's a great sales pitch for commercially made forges, but some of the things it claims are a little distorted. Yes, ceramic matting will be eaten by flux. That's why it's a good idea to either put fire brick on the bottom of the forge or line it with a flux resistant refractory such as Mizzou. I've observed my forge burning and the flame still swirls with the blade in it even with the blade held vertically. A large block of steel might be different but I rarely forge large blocks of steel. Replacing a ceramic liner in my forge, and the over coating of Mizzou, will be no harder than putting installing it in the first place.

Doug


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Old 04-17-2012, 02:41 PM
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I can recommend against the Majestic forges first hand. The burner nozzles are impossible to keep aligned. The burner bodies will eventually start to fall into the forge body, as the liner wears.

Just don't do it.

I'm building a forge like Ed's as soon as funds allow.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:44 PM
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DwaneOliver DwaneOliver is offline
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Here is the forge I just finished building about a month ago. I actually spent $35 on it.
I had the KaoWool , ITC , Bubble Aluma , gas can , just had to buy the bricks. I found them locally for $2 ea brand new, from a guy that was going to build a kiln for pottery.
If I woulda bought everything on-line , probably about a hundred bucks , except the burner.
My burner is a T-Rex and is awesome, this thing will hit weld temps at 10 psi in about 5 min.
2" of KaoWool , 1/2 pint of ITC 200 , bubble aluma refactory on the bottom with 1 1/4 fire brick.
All inside of an old 5 gal gas can.
The burner mount is at the top and pointed forward just a bit, its a little monster.













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