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  #1  
Old 03-17-2008, 03:17 PM
Buddy Thomason's Avatar
Buddy Thomason Buddy Thomason is offline
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Photoshop CS3 - Refine Edge Tool

Has anybody else used this selection enhancement tool?

I haven't actually read the section of the CS3 owner's manual that describes the use of this tool. But I was fooling around with it because it's kind of intuitive and if you pause the mouse pointer over each adjustment slider a pop-up screen describes what that particular adjstment does.

Here's an A/B comparison. B is my initial selection and A is the result of using the Refine Edge tool on the original selection:



Having 'refined' the edge of the selection to my liking I then inverted the selection and did some manipulation of the background.



This was a very difficult dagger to photograph because of the very low contrast damascus steel which produces a rather faint pattern. That aside though, I liked the effect of the edge refinement all around the dagger. There are four adjustments that interact to produce any desired result. I wanted a crisp, smooth edge with no traces of the original background or artifacts. The added benefit seems to be a 'roundness' that, to my eye, looks very realistic.

I realize that to really do a good comparison I should've worked up the same image using the un-refined edge. Just didn't have time for that. My original selection with the pen tool was very close and about as good as it gets with that particular tool. But I think the 'Refine Edge' tool definitely improved the selection and looks to have a lot of potential. (I should probably read the directions someday.)


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Last edited by Buddy Thomason; 03-17-2008 at 11:27 PM.
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  #2  
Old 03-18-2008, 06:54 AM
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Great stuff, Buddy. Lots of potential there. Thanks for binging it to our attention.


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  #3  
Old 03-18-2008, 10:35 PM
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I used it once in a guided tutorial. It worked great in the tutorial, now I only wish I could recall the lesson!...
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Old 03-19-2008, 03:04 PM
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Here's a re-work of an older image using the pen tool and refine edge tool to separate knife images from background so each could be processed separately without any obvious edge artifacts. Seems to work pretty well.



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Old 03-19-2008, 04:02 PM
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I'll admit I have only looked at that adjustment box and didn't experiment. I am dead certain it has value.

Now, from where I sit, the 'B' image (your original) has the crisp detail I want. The 'A' image has rounded some detail off....

Why would I want this?

Your third image is KILLER.

I am more interested in your pen tool as a selector, instead of Polygonal Lasso. Did you describe this elsewhere? Sorry.

Coop


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Old 03-20-2008, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpByCoop
the 'B' image (your original) has the crisp detail I want. The 'A' image has rounded some detail off.... Why would I want this?
Yes, I figured you'd see it that way and I don't disagree. In my enthusiasm playing with a new toy I overdid it. However, my thought about that particular example was that sometimes the ultra-crispness of a selected edge can look a bit un-natural, especially if there is a thin bit of the former background showing here and there. But of course it's easy to fix with the blur brush, the burn brush, even an inner shadow (the opposite of a drop shadow). So, I did the following experiment to see if I could present tangible evidence of two assumptions I've come to favor in using Photoshop.
1. The Pen tool is faster, easier and better with curves than the Polygonal Lasso tool.
2. The Refine Edge tool in PSCS3 is a significant improvement over the former treatments for less than perfect selections regardless of the selection method - Pen or Poly Lasso - namely the contract, expand, smooth and feather options. Yes, those work and I got pretty good at using the Poly Lasso and then cleaning up with the expand/contract/smooth/feather options. But in the new Refine Edge tool all of those options have been integrated with radius and contrast options added. It's the radius and contrast control that, IMO, takes the whole process to a higher level.

The following examples may take some time to study but I think they more clearly show what I failed to show in my example above. BTW, I saw on one of the regular photography forums that they've started to allow images as large as 1024 pixels on the longest side so that's what I did here. I still kept each separate image in the animations in the low 200 kb range. Most folks are using larger screens these days and what I hope to illustrate can be more easily seen with larger image sizes.





After looking at these for a while see if you agree with me that, at least in my hands, the basic pen tool selection is more even overall than the basic poly lasso selection. Then, compare the refined edge versions of both and see if you agree that each type of selection is improved by refining the edge.

But in what ways are the edges refined? First look at the disc ends of the guard and watch what happens when the edge is refined. Look also at the forward belly of the blade near the tip. Then look at the top edge of the blade, top and bottom of the ricasso area and the pommel. The way I manipulated the options in the refine edge tool panel (as contrasted with my original example above) actually 'recovers' more of the edges that I had lost as a result of tryng to select consistently close to the edge as possible. Even at greater than 100% zoom it's very hard to consistently select along the actual edge, especially since at magnification you can't really evaluate your selection over all - you're only seeing a small part of the knife at those kinds of magnifications. While it's easier on the one hand to actually see the edge it's harder to be consistent with regard to the final outcome of the whole selection.

The refine edge tool, or rather integrated set of tools, especially the radius and contrast options, fix that problem. I know it's a small thing in the grand scheme of things. Most knife photographers probably don't depend a lot on selection stratagies in post-processing. Clearly David Darom does and I also do because it's become a part of my 'style' to manipulate the background in certain ways that nobody else does. It's a lot of extra work but it makes my images different from yours, Terril's, Eric Eggly's and Chuck Ward's (and others whom I don't mean to slight by not mentioning their names). Plus, as I continue to work on the Scagel book project I realize that I've got to achieve consistency across many images shot under varying circumstances - brass has to have a consistent value, as do scagel's commonly used spacer materials, so does silver, antler staining etc. Without heavy use of selection options to facilitate localized color, tone, contrast and sharpening adjustments there would be no thematic coherence to the visual presentation page after page. David Darrom's books make that perfectly plain to anyone who takes more than a casual approach to looking at them. Wouldn't you agree?

Our bottom lines are different. My guess is your images wouldn't benefit much at all from sinking effore into this level of detail. Since I don't have the pressures that you pros have I can afford to indulge my quest for the perfect picture, no matter the cost in time.

Ps: Glad you liked that rendition of the Schwarzer pearl slip joint. That's an example where the subtlties of selection really pay off.


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Old 03-20-2008, 07:20 AM
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Hi Buddy,

NOW you are talking! First off, the 1024 images still only fits about half of my big screen, and with cable broadband it loads immediately. You won't get complaints from me in displaying a large image.

No question now that your selection process shows a much improved image. The long areas have a bit of an increase and distinct border, and the small guard areas are nicely rounded and crisp. Absolutely well done.

Yes, I know what you mean about the 'seeing the forest for the trees', so to speak. As I get closer in magnification, I lose long range linear lines. I often scroll in and out of an image while cutting out an inset to use the best vantage point for the area.

I don't use hard cutouts too often anymore, but I DO use them. I plan on exploring your pen tool instead.

(I'd also love to see your tutorial on combining images again.)

Many thanks for your teaching.

Coop


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Old 03-20-2008, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpByCoop
(I'd also love to see your tutorial on combining images again.)
If you're talking about combining images in animated form like those above, it's simple. Rather than explain, just do what I did and go here: http://www.blumentals.net/
Look for Easy GIF Animator - Rik Palm turned me on to it and it's very easy to use. I heard the process has been made easier in Photoshop CS3 so that might be worth a look too. You've probably seen a few others that I've made in the past - most recently the coins in Tom D's thread. But here's my favorite:



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Old 03-22-2008, 01:40 PM
L6steel L6steel is offline
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Free PhotoShop CS3 Tutorials!

Hey guys, I'm sorry if this has been posted before but I figure it's better to be sure so here it is! I found this web page that a bunch of free tutorials for PhotoShop CS3. Here's the link.
http://www.video-tutes.com/packages/Photoshopcs3.php

Now I got a question, would you guys buy PhotoShop CS3 off Ebay as long as you trusted the seller?
I can get it there for less than $300 and it's $600 or more in the stores.
Thanks!!
Michael
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Old 03-22-2008, 06:46 PM
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Michael - Thanks for the link. Looks interesting. Personally, I buy all my software direct from the mfgr., in this case Adobe. To me is just seems fair, and when I've needed support from a mfgr. it's been nice to be recognized as an official registered user and treated accordingly.


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Old 03-27-2008, 06:21 AM
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Support those that support us. Adobe has made it their business to help photographers. Yes, they are making a lot of money off of it but they have earned every penny.


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