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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 04-14-2016, 09:48 PM
thedigitale thedigitale is offline
 
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Complete newb questions and introduction

Hello all!

I'm a hands on, DIY, kinda guy with a pretty solid zombie apocalypse skill set, so smithing seemed like the next skill I should learn. While I'm interested in different projects, I'm mostly interested in knives, and particularly kitchen knives. I love cooking, and have a decent knife collection, but I always find myself staring at a new knife that costs $600+ and wanting to own it. So all of that brought me to where I am now...

I found out that NJ has a blacksmith association, and has a weekly open forge night, so I called and was told that I should come, and bring eye protection and enthusiasm. So the first week, it seems like they'll provide me some sort of steel, and I can basically heat something up and pound the hell out of it. After that, however, I'm kind of on my own. So that said, with a focus on kitchen knives, here are my questions...

1. What is a good place to start with kitchen knives? Is a paring knife easier than a chefs knife because it's smaller, of is a chef's knife more forgiving because it's bigger? Is there a good project that someone with zero experience should look at?

2. I was looking at 52100 steel, as it seems pretty inexpensive and well regarded. I found a local supplier (NJ Steel Baron), but I have no idea what size block of steel to order. I imagine my first few attempts will be throwaways, so I don't want to spend a fortune, but in the event that I make a decent piece, I'd like something that's decent quality. So what width and thickness should I be looking at?

3. I'll seek advise from people, but I'm otherwise very much a 'figure it out on my own' type. I like learning all I can about things, and watching people and their techniques, but ultimately I'm not a classroom guy. Are there any tutorials or videos that you'd recommend I watch? I've been scouring the web, and watched a ton of stuff already, but I'm clueless, so I don't know if something is a good starter video, or if it just looks cool.

Sorry about the long post, and feel free to skip the next part, but I'll toss in a little about me. Thanks in advance for any help!

I grew up in NYC, and got into IT work after a brief stint in the USAF. I enjoy the problem solving aspects of IT, but I've always preferred getting my hands dirty. I got married and moved to NJ, and now I finally have a bit of a farm. We've got chickens, quail, 20 bee hives, and a bunch of house pets (2 cats, 5 guinea pigs, and 2 big dogs, a lab mix and a pointer). In my free time, I do a lot of BBQ (cooking for home and competition), and I build stuff (everything from lawn chairs to chicken coops).
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  #2  
Old 04-14-2016, 11:59 PM
damon damon is offline
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will try a bit of "throw you in the pool to teach to swim" approach here...

3. ....... look at the knives In your kitchen.... measure them., and go from there... study how they preform, and what to do to make work better to your needs.

ive been using NJSB 52100 for kitchen blades recently. you could try the W2 as well. a bit easier to start with than the 52100, and still makes good blade. plus you have the option to learn hamons later.


others will likely chime in with more.

welcome to the fun.
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  #3  
Old 04-15-2016, 12:20 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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I would recommend the NJSB's 1084 or even 80CrV2 if you are starting out and heat treating with a forge. Something like 52100 is a good steel but it can be a little fussy to heat treat with a forge. It's much more reliable with a regulated oven which I doubt that the local blacksmithing group has.

Hopefully you will be able to hook up with a bladesmith there who will know something about heat treating blade steel. The smiths that you find at the club will undoubtedly be a helpful as they can but most of them are probably decorative smiths or even farriers who really only deal with mild steel that doesn't get hardened. At any rate, welcome and good luck. Let us know how we can help you.

Doug


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  #4  
Old 04-15-2016, 05:36 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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Smaller blades are a quicker "learn" as you figure out your hammer techniques and heat control. The thinner blades of most kitchen style knives require a much closer attention to heat control during forging process. Also as you test your blades you will "waste" less steel in the process.
Recommend starting with thinner stock and learn steel manipulation and hammer control. You will find out real fast that thin blades are more difficult to get right and that careful hammer control is very important.

The second issue would be heat-treating the blades once forged out to shape. If you plan to do in-house it will serve your learning curve best to stick with the steels Doug has listed. The higher carbon steels are a good deal more difficult to get right even for the experienced smith as accurate heat control is a must for consistent quality results. Don't get a race car until you learn to drive real well!

Hands on learning is the best, but would get with a bladesmith not just a general blacksmith to learn cutlery smithing......big difference.

Thank you for your service and I hope you find knifemaking as much fun and satisfying as most of us here.
There are NO DUMB QUESTIONS HERE.


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  #5  
Old 04-15-2016, 05:42 AM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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Dougs right, 52100 isn't for a newb. 1084 is the standby for a newb and experienced smith both. It makes great knives and isn't fussy in the heat treat. I picked up some of Aldo's 80crv2, he claims it heat treats like 5160 (easy), but judging from it's alloy content it should perform a little better than 1084.
If your wanting to do kitchen knives get thin stock and grind the blades. In my opinion the first things to learn for a new maker is proper grinding and heat treat. Both of those processes will be done regardless of stock removal or forging.
Don't forget about Ray Rogers Sunday chat for newbs.
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  #6  
Old 04-15-2016, 08:55 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Lots of good advice there already. I'll say the same about starting with 1084 and I would suggest a smaller blade to start with. Kitchen knives were about half of my production and I made them by stock removal. Trying to forge a large blade that thin would require a terrific effort which is probably why any forged chef's knife I've ever seen really wasn't very thin.

But, forging is just a part of making the knife. After that you still have to heat treat it, grind it to its finished shape, do the metal finishing, and make and finish a handle. All these things taken together are usually as much or more work than the forging. Forging is the glamorous part but its only the beginning. That's the real reason why starting with smaller blades is usually the best idea. You will learn faster because you can make smaller knives faster than big ones so you get to repeat all the processes from forging to heat treat to fit and finish more times in a shorter period....


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  #7  
Old 05-03-2016, 12:10 PM
thedigitale thedigitale is offline
 
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Thanks for all the advice everyone. I've been crazy with bee season, but finally got started with knives. Based on the advice here, I got a piece of 1084 steel, and decided to skip the forge and try my hand at stock removal to start. Once I get some of those skills down, I can try my hand at forging, but since I had most of what I need for stock removal at home, I figured I'd give it a shot.

I started last night on this piece, and used a Global paring knife that I like as a guide. I wanted more curve on the blade, and a handle that is contoured to my hand, so I designed it with those goals in mind.

Here's the progress so far with the design template and scales I bought:



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  #8  
Old 05-03-2016, 02:19 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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You definitely have curve there Be interesting to see if you like it as much as you think you will.

As for stock removal skills, you will find them absolutely necessary even after you forge your blades. For some reason I can't quite put my finger on, blades just never seem to come out of the forge as smooth and shiny as I want them to be ....


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  #9  
Old 05-03-2016, 11:21 PM
thedigitale thedigitale is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
You definitely have curve there Be interesting to see if you like it as much as you think you will.

As for stock removal skills, you will find them absolutely necessary even after you forge your blades. For some reason I can't quite put my finger on, blades just never seem to come out of the forge as smooth and shiny as I want them to be ....
I'm not sure it'll be my sole paring knife, as with that kind of curve, it won't do some of what a paring knife should do, but I think it'll be a go-to knife for a lot of uses.
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  #10  
Old 05-03-2016, 11:23 PM
thedigitale thedigitale is offline
 
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Here's some shots of today's progress. It should be ready to heat treat shortly.



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  #11  
Old 05-04-2016, 04:23 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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Interesting design for sure. I'd recommend taking the bevel a good deal farther up the blade if you intend to do much slicing with it. Right now when you go to slice up a tomato or other veg, you'll break the skin then be pretty much mashing your way through the rest of it. Most really good paring knives/kitchen knives are usually flat ground or slightly convex and very thin as Ray mentioned.

That short of edge bevel is better suited for hacking/chopping ie- axe type work. Go ahead and finish it out without the handle - just bulk up with masking tape, then take it to the board and see if it will cut the way you want. Much easier to go back and re-grind or file your bevel to move it further up without the handle in the way.

Bottom line is blade geometry is just important as heat-treating if you want a blade to perform well.
Really looking forward to seeing your end results. Nice wood by the way, is that burl oak?


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  #12  
Old 05-04-2016, 08:45 AM
thedigitale thedigitale is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crex View Post
Interesting design for sure. I'd recommend taking the bevel a good deal farther up the blade if you intend to do much slicing with it. Right now when you go to slice up a tomato or other veg, you'll break the skin then be pretty much mashing your way through the rest of it. Most really good paring knives/kitchen knives are usually flat ground or slightly convex and very thin as Ray mentioned.

That short of edge bevel is better suited for hacking/chopping ie- axe type work. Go ahead and finish it out without the handle - just bulk up with masking tape, then take it to the board and see if it will cut the way you want. Much easier to go back and re-grind or file your bevel to move it further up without the handle in the way.

Bottom line is blade geometry is just important as heat-treating if you want a blade to perform well.
Really looking forward to seeing your end results. Nice wood by the way, is that burl oak?
That makes sense.

My vision for this knife is basically a paring knife in size, but with more of the function of my santoku. I envision it being the knife I reach for when I want to slice up small amounts of chives or cilantro, etc. I have a small cutting board that I keep next to the stove when I cook, and I tend to chop fresh herbs as they go into whatever I'm cooking. My paring knife has always been too flat for this, and my santoku or gyotu are too unwieldy for that space. I know it's a VERY specific purpose, but I find myself in the position of wanting this knife fairly frequently. It will likely be terrible for tomatoes, but murder a green onion. Lol

I believe it's burled oak, but I'm not 100% sure. I was flipping through a box of scales and grabbed this one as soon as I saw it.
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Old 05-04-2016, 05:38 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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L6?

If you want a steel that is "forgiving" I might suggest L6 if you can get it. It has .75 carbon and almost 1% chrome, but the equalizer is it's 1.75 nickel content with .75 manganese and .30 moly. The heat treat is basically like 1095, but holding it at 1470-1550 won't hurt it as much if held too long. If quenched in oil it will be at around Rc63 to 65 depending on how long it stayed near 1525. Here is the kicker if you want a differential HT. It can be air quenched too and loses a couple of Rc points. Temper immediately and bring the stove up to 450 slowly and leave about an hour for a knife. Longer if an axe head with some thicker section. I think only the "S" series steels are more shock resistant and tougher among the tool steels, but they are not nearly as hard. My customer is putting an L6 viking style axe through a torture test and it just keeps going. It has a 30 ounce head as he wanted a functional wood chopper. It's $5.95 a lb and comes in .375 thickness to start. Sheared to width desired. A $25 minimum and $20 shipping for everything. Cincinnati Tool Steel Company.
http://www.cintool.com/page.asp?PageID=13

Thought some of the other guys might want some, but I can't find it any thinner than the 3/8ths, they have half inch plate too..

Last edited by jimmontg; 05-04-2016 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 05-05-2016, 04:14 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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L6, 15n20 and 52100 are my "go-to" steels for kitchen knives. They perform very well and are forgable steels (important to me as I don't do stainless and very little stock removal). Yep, kind of hard to find L6 under 1/4" thick, takes a lot of looking. Usually reduce it down to around 3/32" for most chef/kitchen designs, 1/16" for paring sizes. Not that much hammer work when you get it figured out.

TD - look real close at the santoku geometry -distal tapers, blade cross-section, etc. I think you'll better understand what I'm talking about with edge profile. You can actually slice/dice/mince most veggies with a sharpened piece of aluminum if the geometry is correct - just gets dull much faster.


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  #15  
Old 05-13-2016, 12:09 AM
thedigitale thedigitale is offline
 
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Update

Ok, so I took everyone's advice, and increased the bevel on the paring knife. It took some doing, and I have a smaller knife than I intended, but I think it's ready. While I'm waiting to heat treat that one, I started on a larger blade. I just started this one tonight, but here's the two of them next to one another.
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