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  #1  
Old 08-16-2016, 04:22 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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oil cooling

hey guys so you all know I HT my knives in batches and well I have been seeing slight difference in the hardness of blades done the same way the only thing I can think of is I use parks 50 oil and it should be about room temp so I was thinking if the oil starts off at room temp the first couple knives are good but each knife I add heats up the oil so I thought after a few knives maybe this increase in temp of the oil caould be causeing the slight difference's I was wondering if any one else has had this problem and thought it might be the same cause. also if any one has had this problem have you found any way to cool the oil back down a lil rather than waiting hours? obviously I cant just dump a bunch of ice cubes in it but I was thinking about using a couple of those plastic reusable ice packs that go in the freezer. not a lot just enough to get the oil back to room temp. anyone done this wirth good results? or any other methods anyone may use? I guess the difference in hardness could be something else but I have done this a couple other times and eliminated every other variable I can think of, of course I may have over looked something
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Old 08-16-2016, 05:03 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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You're probably right about the cause of the hardness variance in your batch. But, cooling the oil is likely to create more variance, not less. I see only two practical solutions to your problem:

A) learn to live with it

B) set up additional identical quench tanks. You may say that there is too much additional expense this way. Think about this: you're only having this problem because you're trying to save a few dollars on LN. You're up against one of the basic laws of the Universe here: pay now or pay later. You can choose what you pay for (LN, a dewar, quench tanks and oil) and get some control over your cash flow that way but, in the end, you always pay. No point in fighting it, that's the only choice we ever really have ...


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  #3  
Old 08-16-2016, 05:49 PM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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How much oil are you using in your quench? I'm using an old oxygen cylinder as a quench tank. Enough volume of oil you can stir it between quenches. Oh, my tank is aluminum which allows for further cooling. If you are using just a gallon, then overheating your oil will be a problem. One clue that this is going on, the latter blades flame up bad. Try stirring between quenches.
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Old 08-16-2016, 08:46 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Definitely as the oil heats up, the HT changes slightly, but shouldn't change that much. What metal are you quenching btw? If you are using minimal oil then yes, use a plastic cube to bring the temp back close to room temp. You will need a precise thermometer, one of the infrared will work fine. If you have a big reservoir then as they say stir it up and keep everything to within around 30 degrees quench to quench. Just buy a good thermometer at HF. Heck just doing it by feel should be close enough, never mind the thermometer.

I'm just wondering how much difference are you seeming to get? I can't tell any diff between 80 and 130 degrees unless it cracks, but unless you have a RC tester that shows 10ths of a point, how do you tell? Oil I always used was 130+ degree stuff so I do not know about Parks 50 oil. Are your knives softer or harder and how do you tell?
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Old 08-17-2016, 05:56 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Ray yeh that law of the universe your talking about sucks but I think you may have a point. I have a 5 gal of oil can I split that in half? but then again even if I split it in half it will heat up quicker so that wont work

JM and JIM as I said I am using a 5 gal container for the oil the thermometer I have is more of a kitchen one I guess the kind where you could poke the long rod into something like soup or something and a lil dial on top I have tested it agenst another thermometer that I know is good and it is spot on. I don't have a hardness tester but I can tell even with simple testing like brass rod test ect..
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  #6  
Old 08-17-2016, 08:46 AM
WNC Goater WNC Goater is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtec1 View Post
Ray yeh that law of the universe your talking about sucks but I think you may have a point. I have a 5 gal of oil can I split that in half? but then again even if I split it in half it will heat up quicker so that wont work

JM and JIM as I said I am using a 5 gal container for the oil the thermometer I have is more of a kitchen one I guess the kind where you could poke the long rod into something like soup or something and a lil dial on top I have tested it agenst another thermometer that I know is good and it is spot on. I don't have a hardness tester but I can tell even with simple testing like brass rod test ect..
Out of curiousity, are you saying you are quenching in 5 gallons of oil? The whole 5 gallons? If you have a thermometer, how much is that 5 gallons heating up with subsequent quenchings? You say you do blades in batches. How many in a batch?

I guess what I'm getting at is, how many blades are you quenching at a time that will heat up 5 gallons of oil to the point of changing hardness between the first blade and the last?


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Old 08-17-2016, 02:02 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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ok for example I will profile between 8-12 blades. then I will put 3-4 in the oven at once.. so ok a little while ago I had 3 blades in oven (I literly just quenched them) and only 2 went in the oil (one was plate quenched) so the 2 blades I just quenched in a 5 gal. bucket of parks 50 ....the oil was about 84 85 deg before hand, just quenched and measured the temp again it went up to 102, one blade was .156 thick and about 8 maybe 9 in long the other was .187 thick and about 11 in long... so the temp went from 84 to 102 (18 deg) from 2 blades now as soon as my oven cools down a bit 3 more blades go in so you can see by the time I get those 8-10 blades done it raises the temp quite a bit and from what I read the higest temp you want to use parks 50 at is about 120-125 so if 2 blades bring it to 102 think about what say 10 blades does
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Old 08-17-2016, 11:01 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Well then you will need to cool the oil.

Hand warm at 80-90 degrees is where you want it to be. The plastic frozen plates for ice chests are what you want to use. Just have a few frozen and when the oil starts to heat up just swish one around until feels lukewarm. 120 degrees feels hot and is as hot as the oil you are using should be allowed to get. (Looked it up) Simple solution Dtech. Just make sure and have enough paper towels to clean them up with. Also, different thicknesses will be different after quench. Thicker will obviously take longer to cool than thinner. I hope you are taking that into consideration. 5/32 is going to quench faster than 3/16. You have a thirty thousand difference there. .157 vs. .187 may make a difference I would think. Would quench the thinner after the thicker. I'm not an expert, but that is what they told me.

That is some thin oil you are using, one of the thinnest. Have you thought of going to a thicker viscosity? For O1 we used the 130-150 degree 80 viscosity stuff. Much more consistent. That Parks has a low flash point, so be careful. I've watched a quench turn into a flash fire and the guy was lucky. I worked with a man who had been a heat treater at Ashland Corp. and he had a flash fire that burned his lungs, I have always had a lid to throw down on my oil bath. You can do it 10,000 times, but it only takes one careless moment (or a doggone pothead after a one joint and three beer lunch) to start a fire.

Last edited by jimmontg; 08-17-2016 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 08-18-2016, 08:12 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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thanks jim yeh I was thnking about the thickness also I did most of the blades yesterday 3 more today and I think I got the oil back to the right temp so we will see how it works out when I start grinding them. however I am thinking about buying a dewar for the liquid nitrogen ( like ray said about the law of the universe your going to spend it one way or another I think getting a dewar is the best option long term) then I wont have to hurry HT ing blades and I also had a problem with the container (I am making a new post to explain that and see if anyone has tips on what dewars are good) anyway what you were saying about the oils I have only used canola for the 1084 I started with and when I started with 440 c I was told parks 50 was the best and did some research and found the same thing there. I am as safe as possible I also have a lid to throw over the top if need be....and fortunately I have been clean and sober for almost 5 years now so a joint and a beer wont be messing me up....this knife making thing started after I got clean for a while and found out that I had nothing to do and no sober friends to hang out with so in a way knifemaking has helped me with that I don't know how long I would have lasted without having this hobby (that I love by the way) to keep me busy....hey everything happens for a reason right? even if we cant figure out that reason sometimes
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Old 08-18-2016, 12:50 PM
WNC Goater WNC Goater is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmontg View Post
you can do it 10,000 times, but it only takes one careless moment (or a doggone pothead after a one joint and three beer lunch) to start a fire.

lol! yep that'll do it!

dtec, great news. Two thumbs up for your success! Stay at it, life is too rich to miss out on anything by being stoned. And likewise, when it really blows, being stoned doesn't change that.


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Last edited by WNC Goater; 08-18-2016 at 12:52 PM.
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  #11  
Old 08-18-2016, 04:44 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Staying sober and having an intelligent hobby go hand in hand.

Good luck on your knife works and I am glad you've already made some money. Here is a trick as well, I make smalls and sell them all the time for about $70. I don't have a bunch of time into them and you shouldn't either. I make a simple sheath that is mostly riveted (sewing takes time) and you'd be surprised at how fast they sell Dtech. I make them clean and forge HT, no fancy, fancy takes the price up. I use inexpensive exotic woods like purple heart that comes in 1/8" and 1/4" thick pieces, there are other woods like Bocote, no screwing around with cutting them to thickness needed. 1084? I blue it every time after buffing to a fine finish with Scotchbrite. 4 hours into the knife? means $100, time and materials. Keep it to 3 hours and you can sell smalls fast. I have knives that are $200+ and sell them, but not as fast as an $80 one.

Would tell you good luck on your sobriety, but luck has very little to with it. Good fighting and standing, because you know you have to stand to stay sober. Easy to trip and fall, that's luck and you don't need it.LOL
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:34 AM
Sabrerider Sabrerider is offline
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Confused

Ok,now I'm confused. I was under the impression that 440c,and other stainless steel, was air quench only. Can stainless be quenched in oil and if so, can someone throw out the specifics?
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  #13  
Old 08-26-2016, 08:46 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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440C is primarily air quenching but it can be plate quenched and oil quenched. Recent pieces of 440C that I have had did not air quench to the same hardness as the steel I have been using for years before so oil quenching was required to get the desired hardness. Get the factory specs for any steel you use, all the quench data is on it. Specs can be found online or from any reputable seller on request ...


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Old 08-26-2016, 10:31 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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THanks guys Jim your right about luck having nothing to do with it. but I can say I am done with all that mess ya know I started going the wrong way very young as the guys I grew up with were older and also addicts so I was exposed very young, I wont go into detail but it went WAY farther than being a pot head and yes some was fun but eventually getting locked up and hospital visits WAY outweighed the fun it took a long time to get it right but I wont say "i got it" cause its something that needs continual effort but 5 years ago there was a turning point in my life and I never looked back! and honestly this hobby seriously saved me cause what do ya do when all of a sudden you cant hangout with any of your friends and cant go to the places you used to have fun the first couple years I sat around doing nothing then I started making knives and not saying I wouldn't be sober if I hadn't found this hobby but it would have been a lot harder. this hobby number one gave me something to do with my time and also gave me a sense of accomplishment when I did something right....I think anyone making a change like that needs those 2 things.anyway..
JIM I assume by smalls you mean these little knives I have seen pics of that you can hold in the palm of your hand???
SABRERIDER... from my lil experience and the help I have gotten original testing showed that oil quenching will harden the steel the same as plate quenching BUT with the oil the grain gets really small (like you want it) the plate quenched steel had a bigger grain
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