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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 10-26-2014, 02:13 PM
Norwegian forge Norwegian forge is offline
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heathtreating knife with aluminum thumbguard

Hello everyone.

I made a knife, with some trubble with my hardening, heated it up to a really high temperature, and souked it, but after soaking it didnt get hardened.

I supose this can come from having to little oil or using to mutch time from forge to the oil, or simply overheating in the forge.

i have a home made forge from a old watertank, small one. with a little dore on. round and welded iron sticks under, like a grill or simmilar to that.
and a wind turbine, used earlyer for an actual forge from a forging industry. i have some photos during the heating.

I may have heated/soaked it to long. I dont really know for a 100 % whitch iron it is but im pretty sure its high carbon steal. toolsteal, thay made all kinds of tools, hammers, farming stuff etc.

And as a new project i tryed making an aluminum thumbguard but had trubble with making it stick to the iron, saw some youtube vids of how to melt that thred in there to make it stick, with a nice finish to it, but i didnt get it to stick, ended up over doing it and resulted in the tinn, or whatever it is called in english :S sinking in to the aluminum.

sorry for bad english
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  #2  
Old 10-26-2014, 02:29 PM
Norwegian forge Norwegian forge is offline
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Link on google drive how the forge and knife is, its 5 mm thick, thumbguard is 4 mm aluminum.
i have everything from 2 mm- 10 mm in all sizes, high carbon toolsteal.
the old industry collapset after the owner died, people left and the equipmend was left to the inheritor. still standing 15 years later for my creativity to go luse

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...EE&usp=sharing

- Marius
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  #3  
Old 10-26-2014, 03:08 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Marius,

We would like to help but it is very difficult because you don't know what steel you have. Not all steel can be heat treated the same way. One thing is for sure though and that is that heating your steel to "a really high temperature" is almost certain to fail. If the steel really is a high carbon steel that will harden enough for a knife blade then it will need to be heated until it becomes non-magnetic and then quenched immediately after that point is reached. To heat beyond that point will not make a good blade.

But, since you say the steel did not harden then we can guess that either you did not have it as hot as you thought (meaning it would need to be hotter) or, and this is more likely, it means that the steel does not have enough carbon in it to allow it to harden. Lots of steel that is called 'high carbon' really isn't blade quality steel. If you are serious about making good knives the best thing you can do is to start with steel that you know what it is and how it should be treated. Later, after you understand how heat treating is supposed to work then you can play around with scrap steel and you will know how to test it to see if it will make a good blade.

As for the aluminum, I think you are talking about casting it onto your blade. I'm sure that can be done but I've never met anyone who does it that way. There would be some significant problems to overcome in order to do that since aluminum melts at a temperature much higher than a carbon steel blade could handle without ruining the blade. You are at the beginning of learning how to make knives, you should be concentrating your effort on learning to shape your blades and heat treat them successfully. Trying to learn to cast a guard at the same time will only interfere with the more important task of learning to make a blade correctly. If you need a guard for your knife, just cut one from aluminum and put a slot in it so that it fits over the tang of your knife - that's how guards are done on almost every knife that has a guard....


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  #4  
Old 10-26-2014, 04:04 PM
Norwegian forge Norwegian forge is offline
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Thumbs up

Well, for the handguard i found that what i was looking for is ''soldering''. of the handguard.
Also that i ''ofcourse'' had to use flux for it to attach, unclean durface is allmost impossible to get it to attach.

for the stealtype im allmost sertan its O-1 Tool Steel.
how vital is the pre-temperatur of the oil in the hardening prosses ?
and letting the knife/iron soak for a few minutes is not nessesary ?
correct me if i missunderstod what soaking is.

but my understanding is that as long as its alltrough warm, to the needed hardening temperatur, that is enough for it to be quiched in oil. to its down to about 200 degrees C. since its gonna be tempered somwhere around there anyway, keeping it in the oil isnt nessesary

Is there a minimum oil amount recomended?
i had to tilt the silynder to the side to get it to reach over the handguard place. cilynder is about 10-12 cm diameter. somwhere around the sice of what u can do with youre hands.
so filling it up propperly would make it cool down in a more acurate way.

read somwhere online that letting the knife stay at prox 1500 F. for a few minutes, but i guess as meny things online, its east to get comfuset cuz of all the opinions and bunches of different explenation.

after going through some collow patterns i saw that i think i heated my knife up to atleast 1900 F.
and i should have heated it to about 1500 F.


Thanks for reply
- Marius

Last edited by Norwegian forge; 10-26-2014 at 04:20 PM. Reason: imporved my formulation.
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  #5  
Old 10-26-2014, 04:55 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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OK, that information helps. O1 is not what we call a simple high carbon steel, it is an alloyed steel. O1 makes excellent knives but to properly heat treat O1 requires and electric furnace. You can get it hardened in a forge and it will be a fairly good blade that way but to really make it work requires the kind of temperature control that only an electric furnace can provide.

So, with a forge, the best you can do with O1 is to heat it to the point where it becomes non-magnetic and then just a little bit more, then quench in warm oil. The oil does need to be warm, about 100 F to 125 F.

Speaking of oil, what are you using? The kind of oil can be very important. Motor oil is useless, very bad, don't use it. Common oils are canola oil, peanut oil, hydraulic fluid, automatic transmission fluid. These oils are OK for simple carbon steels and if that's all you have then they will have to do for your O1 also. As I said earlier though, O1 is an alloyed steel and because of that is hardens much better when a professional fast quenching oil is used.

The problem with "letting the knife stay at prox 1500 F. for a few minutes" in a forge is that it is almost impossible to do. Yes, O1 should stay at 1500 F for about 10 minutes but a forge won't allow that. The longer the steel sits in the forge the hotter it gets, 10 minutes later the steel won't be 1500, it will probably be closer to 2000 F and the blade will not quench correctly from that temperature.

Soldering. Someday I hope you can learn to do it if that is what you really want but, again, you are just starting and soldering is extremely difficult for most people which is why hardly anyone bothers to do it any more. Now we just make the guard fit as close as possible and use some JB Weld on it. JB Weld is a kind of epoxy sometimes called 'liquid steel', most places that sell auto parts have it. Much easier than soldering.....


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  #6  
Old 10-26-2014, 05:08 PM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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Marius, you should probably get in one Ray's newbie chat tonight. You can probably get a lot of those unknowns worked out there.
As someone who has made many(conservative estimate at best ) blades from "what's it" steel, I can tell you it's best to buy some known stuff to take the guess work out of the deal. Unless you have a lot to play with this is the best way. It usually takes a few blades to get the heat treat down for mystery steel, even if it is "good" steel.
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  #7  
Old 10-26-2014, 06:02 PM
Norwegian forge Norwegian forge is offline
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Talking

For now, ive used Motoroil, used and unused mixed.
Im gonna go bye some nutoil then, i have seen earlyer that it does a good job keeping the steal hard.

I literaly have tons and tons of different dimentions, like i said 2-10 mm steel, lays everywhere. so i dont think im gonna spend anything on eather steel or handle material.

but yea, i think im gonna focuse more on tempering and just temper some knife's, simple ones with a little edge on to temper and see how i get it, take it trough some bending tests, so i dont put so mutch time in to design and handles, and turn out to be garbage

The knife i allready made, and tryed harden. can i harden it again. or have it lost alot of its base material that makes it strong. carbon and such.
i guess its gotta loos somthing after reatching alot of temerature?
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  #8  
Old 10-26-2014, 06:03 PM
Norwegian forge Norwegian forge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmccustomknives View Post
Marius, you should probably get in one Ray's newbie chat tonight. You can probably get a lot of those unknowns worked out there.
As someone who has made many(conservative estimate at best ) blades from "what's it" steel, I can tell you it's best to buy some known stuff to take the guess work out of the deal. Unless you have a lot to play with this is the best way. It usually takes a few blades to get the heat treat down for mystery steel, even if it is "good" steel.
Ray's newbie chat ? ill look for it
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  #9  
Old 10-26-2014, 06:56 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Don't worry about your English, you're doing fine.

No, you don't have to hold the blade in the oil until it's all the way cool to harden the steel. You need to hold it long enough that it cools past the point the the phase conversion in the steel crystals will start. Holding it in the oil for 6-8 seconds and then letting it cool in air until it's just warm to the touch will do. It has nothing to do with the temperature that you will temper at. Tempering is a separate operation.

Quench hardening traps carbon atoms in the steel matrix as it cools rapidly. Tempering allow some of those carbon atoms to escape and make the steel less hard. Untempered steel can break much like glass.

The 815? C. soak gives some time for the carbides in the O1 to break down and release the carbon in them into solution. Temperatures higher than that are avoided to prevent grain growth in the steel. Higher temperatures will also effect the hardness achieved in the process. A 10 minute soak would be optimal at that temperature but that's pretty much impossible to do with a forge. Trying to hold the soak for a minute or two is about the best you can expect at this level.

If you don't have a magnet, get one. Slowly heat the steel until the magnet will not stick to the steel and then get it just a little brighter. Try to hold it at that brightness for about a minute and the quench in oil. I hold my magnet in tongs for the testing.

I'm not familiar with the steel codes in Norway but if you can look for a steel with around 80-85% carbon these will the best for beginners. Steels with 69-70 % carbon are also usable but they will have a little less hardness and more toughness. Maybe you can run into some posts from other Norwegian knife makers to see where they get their steel from. I know that the New Jersey Steel Baron has sent steel to Europe but I imagine that the shipping cost would be a factor. Most of their steel comes from Germany as I understand it so you would end up paying shipping both ways.

Doug


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  #10  
Old 10-27-2014, 10:57 AM
Norwegian forge Norwegian forge is offline
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Oh, well this all tells me more of my situation and detailed '' noob'' things i needed to know.

But ive used allmost 5 hours on trying to quench and heat and treat and break and stuff. i have after serveral tryes at different temperature,

tryed steels all around, but really no succsess. it wouldent break, grain wouldent even grow.
Untill itryed another type, or dimention laying there. a long 5 mm thick flatsteel.
Put it in there and heated it up to around 800-1000 c
and bam it broke like a piece of glass.

happy as i was i started to design a knife on a new part of that same steel, started filing, and all that. realized this tok #### long and the steel was ####ing hard even when i hadent hardenend it, i tryed breaking it but i had no chanse, was so #### hard i tup it in a bending machine, think its like 50 tons or somthing.and it broke off like a #### ####ing hard file or so. thats when irealized it was a whole 6 meters long flat finished hardent from the store or somthing,

So my question is, Can i use this ? is it even worth all the time spent grinding it and stuff`?
Or can i normilize it and make it soft ?

I vouldent get grain growth in that other metals i tryed
but il try more later on. il make a new link with photos of knife and steal and forge and so.
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  #11  
Old 10-27-2014, 11:36 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Sounds like you have found a piece of steel that could make a good blade. Yes, I think you should try to anneal it (make it soft) so that you can cut and shape it more easily.

To anneal the steel you will need to heat it up to around non-mag and then cool it very, very slowly. The best way to cool the steel that slowly is to bury it in wood ash for at least 24 hours. If you don't have wood ash then vermiculite from a garden supply place can work almost as well. Kitty litter is another good insulator that can work. With any of these materials you want to have at least 6 inches of insulator all around the steel, more is better.

When you do this put an additional piece of steel in there along with the piece you will use for your blade. The extra piece is for you to practice with so that you can learn how to get it to harden again without risking your blade.

I know you are using a coal forge. If none of that other stuff is available for you to use to anneal your steel you could try heating up your coal forge, bury the steel in the coals, and then let it sit until the coals are cold. Cover the forge to choke off the air if you can to try to keep the steel from oxidizing any more than it has to.

One of those methods should produce a piece of steel you can work with ...


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Old 10-27-2014, 12:36 PM
Norwegian forge Norwegian forge is offline
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yea, i can do that. i have so #### mutch coal laying in big sacks, can just fill up the forge and let it glow up and leav the knife in there till its all dark, probably over the night or somthing. should ne anough, and then go back and haden it after im done working on it,

Interesting that i found so mutch factory hardened steal ...
wonder what steal it is tho...
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  #13  
Old 10-27-2014, 12:58 PM
Norwegian forge Norwegian forge is offline
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here is some photos of all the steel and the knife i shaped, the hardened one, and some grain photos

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2...dDQ&authuser=0
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  #14  
Old 10-27-2014, 07:11 PM
Norwegian forge Norwegian forge is offline
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Sorry if the link didnt work

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...DQ&usp=sharing

should work now.
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Old 10-27-2014, 07:51 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Interesting looking place. From what I can see, all the photos where you show a broken piece of steel show very bad grain, not blade steel, except for the very last one. That last one looks like it would be worth further testing.

Unless that factory was manufacturing cutting tools or maybe springs its likely that none of that steel is any good for knives except possibly that last piece you tested. Most of that steel looks structural - that's mild steel meant for building things that don't need to be hard like a knife blade.

That blade looks like a pretty good concept but it is much too large for a first knife. Be smart and put that one aside until you have worked the bugs out of your knife building process. Right now, you need to be making knives one after the other and trying to get better with each one. That is much easier and the learning is much faster if you make small knives with blades of 4" or less. Every new maker tries to make that same large knife but they usually just end up wasting a lot of time and effort to create what amounts to a sharpened club. Learn to walk before you try to run ...


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