How to proceed? Some advice please.

[cbsmith111]

Hello, my name is Bradley. I'm completely new to this (or any) forum and to knife making as well. I've ground three blades so far for a little practice and familiarizing. I do pretty well tracing and cutting out the profiles, but I still need some work on my bevels and I am in need of some advice.

I am doing flat grinds on a belt sander and so far I have been using a jig of sorts that I made. I know, please don't yell at me. I've read enough posts on here and elsewhere to know that this is not advised by most experience knifemakers for beginners. My "jig" is simply a piece of 2x4 that I ripped an angle on with a table saw. I've been laying the angled side down flat against the work table on the belt sander. Then I clamp the knife edge up on the front side so that it holds it at the same angle as I approach the belt as long as I keep it flat against the work surface.

The thing is it seems to actually work alright. I have still gotten a little weird around the tips, and my plunge cuts could be better although the last one was looking almost decent, but overall the bevel ends up being ground fairly even and flat.

So here is my questions. Should I abandon this home made jig as is usually advised and start over again completely freehand even if it means my results take a step backward? Should I continue to use this method until my results top out and then adjust what I do accordingly? My instinct is to start doing them without it, but I kind of feel like I'm making progress and I'll be starting all over again. I've only got the time and money for about 2-4 blades per month, so I really hate to start completely destroying them again.

[Ray Rogers]

How about this: use your jig to do the metal hogging and establish your bevels. Then, switch to freehand for the finer grits for the finishing work. The finer grits shouldn't remove much metal so you there shouldn't be much risk of seriously damaging the blade. This way, you get the help you need now with the bevels and you also begin the process of training your muscle memory for how the blade should feel against the belt when the bevels are in place. Not much risk to your blades and it shouldn't be long before you can grind without the jig....

[Eli Jensen]

Ah . . . the 2x4 jig. Been there. Nothing wrong with it if works. The problem though is 1) not that durable 2) swelling from water. Gotta keep the blades cool. Good luck doing it without getting your jig wet.

Go to home depot, spend $14.50 on some aluminum L-bar. Drill a 3/16 hole in it, boom theres where you bolt the blade (#6 is a good size, IMHO). On the other side, super glue a popsicle stick to the very end. This will almost certainly give you too much angle, but better too much than too little. Here's what you do. Scribe the center line on the edge of your steel. I have a homemade scribing jig, it doesn't always get perfectly center. So scribe it from both sides and then you have an outline of your edge before HT. So, grind the bevel till you hit or are close to hitting your. Look at your grind line. If you want to raise it, sand down the popscicle stick a LITTLE, repeat until its raised to where you want it. REMEMBER, you can raise it but can't lower it. Keep in mind, your final grind line will be maybe 5-10% higher, from grinding post HT. After HT you can pop it right back on and it should be the same angle.

[AUBE]

I like Rays idea. Its a lot easier to find the right spot when the bevels are already there. After a little practice you'll be able to slap those blades down on the platen at the right angle without thinking about it.

Jigs work but they are restrictive. After learning freehand you'll actually be able to grind faster than with a jig, and do a wider variety of shapes.

Then there is the whole debate if using a jig is acceptable for handmade/custom knives. Sure its easier, but then so is using a laser cutter for profiling, a mill for machining, a cnc program to automate, or even outsourcing to another shop. Each maker needs to pick where they want to draw the line.

[Crex]

Think I'd drop back on the 2 - 3 per month and get serious about getting one "right". Practice doesn't make perfect......only perfect practice makes perfect.
Focus on what you don't like about the ones you have worked on so far, then the next one will be better and so on....
Jig/no jig should not be the big issue. Do the best with what you have then figure how to improve on that.

[cbsmith111]

This all seems like very sound advice. It's nice to get a variety of opinions so I can take a little something away from each suggestion.

The 2 or 3 a month is not completed knives. I have actually yet to complete one (other than the first one I made from a file before I even made an effort to research proper techniques). If I mess something up I don't go on to complete it. I've just been buying steel and leaving the handle material and such until I get one the way I want it. I cut out the profile and get it how I want it, and then I make a go at grinding the bevel. If it doesn't turn out right, and I feel that I am not able to correct it, I just set it aside and move on to a new one trying to improve what I think is wrong.

I don't know if this is the best strategy or not. I just figured why spend the time and money to finish out a poorly ground blade when I can use it to cut out another one until I get it right.

I have always loved knives, and I have always wanted to create something for a hobby. I am a person plagued by fear of failure and a desire for instant gratification. I normally give up on things very easily when I get frustrated. I am trying very hard not to do that with the knives. I very much appreciate everyone's input. I searched and searched for a place where I could get this level of information and assistance.

[Crex]

I hear what you are saying Bradley and can appreciate your approach. I have a tendency to keep working the same piece of steel until I get it right....or run out of material, not everyone's approach. Just hate to see good steel sit idol.
Keep working at it.

[Gary Mulkey]

Bradley,

I am another advocate of free handed grinding but can understand your budget restrictions. I would suggest that you practice on scrap steel until you get used to grinding w/o any jigs. This will allow you to practice grinding with little or no material costs.

Gary

[cbsmith111]

One final quick question. When I am grinding freehand and edge up, should I rest the spine of the blade against the tool rest, or should I hold it up off of the flat surface?

[Eli Jensen]

Then there is the whole debate if using a jig is acceptable for handmade/custom knives. Sure its easier, but then so is using a laser cutter for profiling, a mill for machining, a cnc program to automate, or even outsourcing to another shop. Each maker needs to pick where they want to draw the line.

If there is a debate on this, there shouldn't be. The key word is "hand"made. A flat grinding jig still requires a makers hand. Think about all the other jigs a knifemaker uses. A bench vise is a type of jig. Drill press vice. A grinder is a jig to hold the belt in a certain way connected to a motor. A stitching pony for sheaths. Lansky.

I'm sorry I don't know why that struck a chord with me

Also, I don't know what kind of grinder cbsmith has. Freehanding on a less than par grinder, i.e. 4x36, is nearly impossible to get clean grind lines.

[AUBE]

Originally Posted by Eli Jensen

If there is a debate on this, there shouldn't be. The key word is "hand"made. A flat grinding jig still requires a makers hand. Think about all the other jigs a knifemaker uses. A bench vise is a type of jig. Drill press vice. A grinder is a jig to hold the belt in a certain way connected to a motor. A stitching pony for sheaths. Lansky.

I'm sorry I don't know why that struck a chord with me

Also, I don't know what kind of grinder cbsmith has. Freehanding on a less than par grinder, i.e. 4x36, is nearly impossible to get clean grind lines.

Sorry if I offended, it wasn't my intention. I learned freehand and have done it for years but we actually started using a grinding jig on some of our blades recently. When you have 50 identical shapes to grind it can come in handy. So I do not look down upon people using jigs, but it is an issue for some, and has come up time and again over the years on the forums.

As I said each person can draw their own line as to what is handmade. Is using a power hammer "hand forged" since one hand holds the steel? How about a rolling mill? What if you are using a milling machine to mill the shape and you are turning the cross slide by hand? What if one person holds a blade while the other grinds on it? Whos the knifemaker? The grinder? The holder? Both?

There is no doubt about it, a grinding jig does take some of the human element out of the equation...its no longer muscular coordination controlling the angles. Is that a bad thing? It just depends on the individuals views. I have no problem with people using jigs, laser cutters, milling machines, outsourcing, etc as long as they are upfront and honest about their methods. Then the customer knows what they are getting. And as we can see from the market, many customers don't mind jigs,mills, power tools, cnc, etc.

I probably shouldn't have brought it up, as it turns the conversation a bit off topic.

ANd I hear you about the 4x36. My first sander was a 4x36. I despised it. I doubt I could have gotten a clean blade even with a jig, the platen and tracking were horrible.

[Ray Rogers]

cbsmith111,

If you're freehand grinding then remove the tool rest. You don't need it but having it there can cause a serious problem if anything (blade, piece of a jig, cuff of a sleeve, fingertip) manages to get pulled down between the belt and the tool rest. I forgot to remove the tool rest last week after profiling a blade and have a blood blister on the very tip of my right index finger to illustrate what I mean. Somehow, the blade popped back from the belt and smacked the end of my finger. We're talking a distance of maybe one inch but with so much force that my finger was numb for half the day....

[Eli Jensen]

Nah I'm not offended. We could start a whole conversation about all this. I don't think we'll ever come up with clear definitions. For me, as long as there is a hand on the blade (or tongs, when the blade is hot). This conversation reminds me of Wayne Goddard's "primitive" knives.

And yes, the platen and tracking on a 4x36 are HORRIBLE. Grinding on it is a serious balancing act. But I've never ground on anything else and I think I've made it work for me.

[cbsmith111]

Thanks again to everyone. I've got enough steel to cut out two profiles, and hopefully I'll get started on one them this weekend. I also just bought a good set of files and have been thinking about using them for most of the work (I've worked with files for years. I've just never had a good set of my own). Maybe I'll try one that way and try the other freehand on the belt sander or some combination of both. I'll try to get some pictures up of how they turn out for some more advice.