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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 10-17-2014, 01:52 PM
extremeedge extremeedge is offline
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general question about bevel

hello guys so since I last posted I got all the steel I needed to make enough knives to get to heat treat so 24 between 7-11 inches in length
I got all of them profiled out and ready to grind the bevel
so heres where im running into the issue I have an old school 1x42 stand up belt sander with a fully adjustable deck
now what I have bin doing is using my protractor angle gauge I set the deck to the desired angel attached the blade to a piece of 2x4 I cut to size and squared with my 4 inch sander
now can anyone tell me why the angles I sand don't match on the steel?
I have tried to compensate by changing the angle of the deck and just eyeing it out but I am wondering if there is something I am missing or just don't know
any help on the matter would be greatly appreciated
mark
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  #2  
Old 10-17-2014, 03:04 PM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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If I read this correctly, your concern is with the primary bevel that you are trying to grind with the flat platen of a 4" grinder. Correct?

If this is the case, then there is no correct answer. The angle is dependent on a few factors.
First, Are you doing a partial grind or a full grind? A partial grind will be at a larger angle since it does not taper sharp enough to go all the way to the spine.
Second, How tall is the blade? A blade two inches from edge to spine will have a shallower full bevel than a blade one inch in that dimension.
Third, How wide are you leaving the edge and what percentage of you final dimensions are you trying to achieve in your pre-heat treat grinding?

Best I can do is tell you to set aside the protractor. This is part of the 'art' of knifemaking. Each knife is different and may even be different in different areas of the same blade as most of mine are.

Grind the edge of your profiled blank to 400g or better. Then, use and edge scribe to mark the lines you wish to grind to. I leave my edge about 1/16" thick going into heat treat on most knives. Then grind both sides even but not to final size. I do about 80-90% pre heat treat.

This grinding is best done by hand checking frequently to determine where more material needs to come off. This will guide your hand to twist or lean the blade against the belt as needed to achieve your desired outcomes.

More art and less science in the operation. Good luck!


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  #3  
Old 10-17-2014, 03:46 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Mark,

24 blades? Don't do that. That is the worst possible thing for a new maker who has never completed a knife to do. What, you expect your first knife to be perfect? If it isn't you will probably end up with 24 knives with all the same errors in them.

Or, maybe you mean to finish them one at a time - I hope so. That way you have a chance at getting progressively better as you go.

As for that grinding angle, I repeat the answer I offered the first time you asked that question. Please read it carefully and understand that it is basically the same thing Andrew just told you. Trying to worry about angles is a machinist's approach and you aren't a machine. My original post has a fairly good description of exactly how to grind that bevel. Study it, and if you don't understand something then ask about it and we'll try to clarify.

QUOTE:
Lots of guys start with those 4" grinders, not the easiest thing to use but they work for a while. Since you have a 1" with plenty of power I'd suggest you use that for most of your grinding.

Every newbie I ever met, including myself 20 years ago, asks that question about what angle to grind on a blade of X dimensions. That's the wrong way to think about it - the angle is of no concern whatsoever. My point is, for a bar of steel of any given size there is only ONE angle that will result in a full flat grind all the way across the blade when the edge is centered on the blade. So, just grind until the blade is flat all the way across without crossing the centerline on the edge and without cutting into the blade's spine and you will have achieved that angle whatever it may be. If you don't want a full flat grind then just grind as far as you want to go without crossing the centerline and try to do it the same on both sides. That takes practice - the whole secret to grinding the same on both sides is simply practice.

And forget about the jigs. Jigs will generally limit you to a specific size or shape of blade or a particular type of grind. Learn to grind free hand and you'll be able to grind any blade of any size with any type of grind you want. Lots of beginners use a jig at first but, if you do, try to use it just to see how a grind shapes up and then try to duplicate that by hand.

Knife making is a technological art form. It requires study and lots of practice. But, you will be surprised at how fast you can learn to do some of these things that look like they are impossible when you first see them - like grinding - if you will simply put in a few weeks of practice and realize that you will have to scrap a few blades to get where you want to be ..


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Old 10-17-2014, 08:47 PM
extremeedge extremeedge is offline
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Andrew
I am using a 1x42 belt sander
right now im attempting to bevel the smallest ones I profiled so less than one inch tall
I did not know I had to leave flat on the edge for heat treat and so far I have not go the angle right yet ither but thanks for that info lol
no I don't want the grind to go all the way to the spine on all of them I made a few different designs in each size steel I had got
what do you mean 400g ? are we talking sandpaper ? at the moment I can only source 120 and 80 in my belt size
I was going to order from 80 grit to 2000 grit online tho
thank you for your knowledgeable response and I look forward to further conversing with you
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Old 10-17-2014, 08:58 PM
extremeedge extremeedge is offline
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lol roger I was a machinist lol
I was thinking how much easier it would be to do this on a bridgport miller
honestly freehand scares the #### out of me im not sure I could make a good looking knife this way
I take things one step at a time
I acquired all the steel before designing my profiles
I cut all the steel into lengths then I traced the profile onto each one and cut them out I just like doing things this way
I pretty much boxed up my 4 inch sander and am prob going to return it as its useless to me
and I am sorry for asking the same question twice
no I did not want the first one to come out perfect and I knew from the start that blades would be scrapped
thanks for the reply to my question ray
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  #6  
Old 10-18-2014, 09:13 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Of course, the bevels on a knife blade can be done on a mill by hand or by CNC control. Most of the time they come out looking like they were done on a mill and still need to be cleaned up by hand (which usually means on a belt sander). If you can clean up the blade that way you can grind it that way in the first place.

Nothing to be scared of, but you can be pretty sure you won't make a good looking blade that way the first time and probably not the second time either. But, after a few weeks of practice that will change.

If you really want to be a knife maker then you need to learn to do this. The world still has room for another knife manufacturer though if that is where your true interest lies. Either way, we'll do our best to get you where you want to go ....


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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 10-18-2014 at 09:30 AM.
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  #7  
Old 10-18-2014, 11:20 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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To play off of what Ray was saying.....

Learning to free hand grind a blade is the single most liberating thing that an individual can do for themselves. Yes, it takes time and effort, and you will wreck some blades along the way, but once your body learns what it's trying to do and FEEL, and your ears learn what to listen for, there won't be a blade profile that you can't grind. In my experience, folks who come from a machining background have the most difficult time learning to free hand grind......that's not a slam, it's just an observation. You've been conditioned to do thing one way, and in order to free hand grind, you've got to "UNLEARN" some of those things that machining has conditioned you to do/see/feel....which is always difficult.

Crafting a knife is as much about "art" as it is about "science"......and the "art" is what takes time and effort. Just to give you an idea...when I learned to grind, I kept an empty 5 gallon bucket behind me....and when I would wreck a blade while grinding, into the bucket it went. When that bucket was full, it got hauled off to the scrapyard, and over a matter of months, it took longer and longer to fill that bucket......until I no longer needed the bucket. Even after all these years, I still occansionally wreck a blade while grinding.....but that's just part of what we do.
The difference between a "knifemaker" and a "good knifemaker" is that a "god knifemaker" knows how to minimize or fix their mistakes. Over the years I've taught a large number of folks to grind, and as with anyting in life, the amount of time and effort required to learn, is directly related to the individual's gifts and determination.
Next, you mentioned you use a 1 x42" grinder.....I can tell you with all certainty that NOTHING will improve your knives more then acquiring, and learning to use, one of the "top end" 2x72" grinders.


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  #8  
Old 11-08-2014, 09:15 AM
Jacktheknife Jacktheknife is offline
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Extremedge,


Howdy, I have been trying to learn knifemaking for over a decade and have been stuck on beveling too. I can profile, drill, harden and temper, affix handles and do basically everything but bevel!
I have ruined many blades trying to learn and just stopped trying because I was ruining so many blades. Hearing Ed Caffery mention that he fills 5 gallon buckets with ruined blades makes me feel better as I now realize others ruin blades too.
I found a knifemaker up in North Dallas who said in the spring that he would show me how to bevel if I would come over to his shop and I am saving gas money and getting ready to go over there as soon as the summer heat is over which it is. So with a beveling lesson I hope to get back on the knife making project. He bevels by hand like Ray does and he wouldn't take money to show me.

Now its November 8th and I get a check in 8-9 days. I may be able to head to north Dallas and get a beveling lesson. It ain't easy!


Thank you...


Jack the Knife...
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