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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 07-20-2010, 12:36 PM
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gigante gigante is offline
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Kitchen knife design help

So I am starting to look toward Christmas already, only because I want to make a kitchen knife or two for my future in-laws. I guess the problem is I don't have a ton of experience in the kitchen, and I want to make sure I give them something useful. I know they grill chicken and ribs a lot, and my fianc? said it should be something that can cut through bone.

I don't really want them to know what they are getting, so I can't ask for many more details, and they live far away, so I can't sneak into the kitchen to see what they have. Any suggestions I should keep in mind (steel type/size/general design ideas)?
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Old 07-20-2010, 01:04 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Cutting through bone is not a job for any kitchen knife unless maybe you're talking about a chicken bone (preferably cooked). If you're thinking rib bones then make a heavy cleaver instead. Any good kitchen knife can cut rib bones apart by cutting through the tendons and stuff at the joint but you won't cut through a beef rib with anything but a cleaver or a saw.

An 8" or 10" chef knife is useful all around in the kitchen, so is a 6" straight blade boning knife. Something along those lines should work for your friends. If they know and appreciate good knives then carbon steel is especially good for cutting meat. If they are typical knife users who barely know which end to hold on to the stainless would be appropriate. In any event, if you use a steel you are familiar with you'll be more likely to make the best knife you can make and that is the most important thing ..........


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Old 07-20-2010, 01:09 PM
Kostoglotov Kostoglotov is offline
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For steel go Stainless - 440C, ATS 34, CM154 are all good choices from a cost/performance standpoint.

Go to a store like Williams Sonoma and look (and hold) some of the higher end commercial knives (KAI, Wushoff, etc) to get a feel and a look at the knives and talk to the sales people (Varies by location as to their knowlege base). You can also look at the knifemaker stores that sell blanks for general blade shapes as well

I'd start off with a paring knife and if doing a second either a prep or chef knife.
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:25 PM
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Ray,
I considered a cleaver, but I think she is talking more about the chicken bones.

I'm not sure they know much about knives, but her dad will discuss just about anything with anyone. I'm sure he'd be interested to learn. He would definitely be willing to take care of it if I decided on carbon steel. He'd probably turn it into a chemistry lesson and elicit some eye-rolling from their youngest.

K,
I've used 440C and 1080 (only one knife each) so far, so I'll probably use 440 if I decide on stainless. I'll check some knives out and see if I can find something I think would work for them.


Thanks guys for the opinions and advice.
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Old 07-20-2010, 08:38 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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440C is great for kitchen knives so if you've used it before you should do fine with that. As for chicken bones, cooked or raw, any good knife with a proper heat treatment should handle that just fine.

Another option you might consider if you wanted something different for them would be a Chinese cleaver. I make a lot of those from 440C. They are thin and lightweight like a chef's knife and can be used the same way. They aren't heavy choppers when made this way. Make it about 3" high and 8" long and it will probably be more versatile than any other knife they own....


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Old 07-25-2010, 01:18 PM
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ckluftinger ckluftinger is offline
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After 35 years at the stove, there is little i don't know about using kitchen knives. I have two sets i use, one by Wenger (Swibo) which is now Victorinox, the other by CCI. My Wenger set is still my first set my dad gave me when I was an apprentice. He used the same in his butcher shop and swears by them. Reason being, they are not exessively hard, like Henckel and Wuesthof. I once dropped a colleagues' Henckel on a tiled floor and the tip shattered. Too hard in my opinion. Also, the squared-off handles allow the knife to actually come to a rest with the edge facing up. Not good. The back ought to be rounded so the knife will always fall over sideways when you put it down. Seems like an unlikely problem, but trust me, I've seen apprentices do it and cut themselves when they reached over the blade to pick something up. I like my 8 inch blade the best. As an all-purpose knife for chopping, slicing and dicing it's great. Any longer and it becomes unwieldly. I have a 11 inch blade I've never used. Of course, the french blade should not be used for boning, or paring. I teach a knife handling course here in BC, and I work with the government as an assessor for apprentice cooks. One of the most common causes of injuries is using a knife for the wrong purpose. so, in short, what kind of knife would i want if i had only one or two to choose from? A 8 inch french blade and a paring knife. Ray is the better one to ask about the type of steel to use. I've made two kitchen knives so far, from 5160. I took the big one to Ontario last month where I worked for the G-8 summit. I cut more than 600 steaks before having to sharpen it. Yes, it's a hard steel. On the down side, the meat juice made the steel tarnish beyond being cleanable. Had to use a scouring pad to get it shiny again. I think I'll try 440c next time. I'm no expert on making knives, but i am on using them in a kitchen. let me knw if you need any more input...


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Old 07-25-2010, 02:06 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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ckluftinger,

Lots of guys like they way a carbon blade will patina over time and with use, no need to clean the stains off. Wash it for sanitation but don't be concerned about the stains. In fact, the stains protect the steel from rusting. Depending on the amount of use you may want to rub the blade down with cooking oil (wipe off the excess and let it dry) two or three times per year. That's really all the care a carbon blade needs.

Carbon blades tend to excel at meat cutting while stainless may be better for veggies in some cases. Stainless blades are especially good when cutting white veggies for the gourmet crowd. Carbon blades may sometimes leave a light discoloration on white veggies, so light most of us wouldn't even notice but not so the epicure. Stainless blades can be too hard but so can carbon blades - it's just a matter of the proper heat treatment the same as with any other knife .........


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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 07-25-2010 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 07-25-2010, 08:46 PM
Kostoglotov Kostoglotov is offline
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Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
Carbon blades tend to excel at meat cutting while stainless may be better for veggies in some cases. Stainless blades are especially good when cutting white veggies for the gourmet crowd.
Ray

Is this for the reason you outlined or is there another reason?
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Old 07-25-2010, 08:57 PM
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Thanks Chris, that's just the sort of answer I was hoping for.

Also, Ray, from the time I've spent on this forum, I would say you are one of the most helpful people that I've ever 'met'. Thanks.
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Old 07-26-2010, 08:51 AM
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Ray, I suppose I need to "rediscover" non-stainless blades. When I started in the cook trade, there were still a few old carbon blades around, and we all made an effort to get rid of them in the name of "progress". At the time the catch phrase was sterility and sanitation. Wooden cutting boards had to make way to plastic, and carbon steel was replaced by stainless. I had a nice old carbon blade in one of the hotels i worked at, which had just that patina you describe from years of service, no doubt. When they "modernized" the kitchen all the enameled ovens were replaced with stainless, the old tiled floors became poured resin, and all the hardwood counter surfaces were thrown out. Same with the knives. I remember my ex wife using it to split kindling. You are right, being stained doesn't make it unsanitary, but it may take some convincing - especially a health inspector.


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Old 07-26-2010, 09:18 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Kostoglotov,

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking me there. What I meant to suggest is that some chef's prefer the way carbon blades cut meat but will still use a stainless blade for veggies to avoid the slight staining that might occur. Many other chefs are perfectly happy with the way stainless blades cut both meat and veggies and, in fact, stainless blades cut just fine - they just cut differently.

gigante,

Thank you, I trybut I'm just one of many.

ckluftinger,

Funny isn't it how someone will just to a conclusion like carbon blades and wooden cutting boards are obviously unsanitary? Then, someone actually gets around to doing some careful testing and whoops! we boobooed but let's not talk about it too much. There seems to be no doubt that stainless blades are as clean as we might wish but the bit of iron we get off of carbon blades doesn't seem to have any ill effect either. A pitted blade, on the other hand, could be an issue and my guess is that's more of a reason for stainless blades than anything else. Cutting boards, on the other hand, have turned out to be a much simpler issue in the laboratory. Tests have clearly shown that plastic cutting boards can easily be less sanitary than wooden boards. Yes, the cuts and scratches in wooden boards can hold bacteria as was always 'imagined'. The surprise comes from the fact that the bacteria colonies in the isolated scratches don't have enough critical mass to be viable - they die out. A plastic board can allow the bacteria to grow to a dangerous level. Of course, proper sanitation techniques will prevent these problems with any board or blade but it does show you that 'obvious' conclusions aren't always as obvious as they would appear.

But, we still have to please the health inspector. Since many of my customer's are pro chefs and a significant number of them order carbon blades I 'assume' that at least some health inspectors don't find fault with carbon blades. Or, maybe the chefs just hide them....


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Old 07-26-2010, 12:48 PM
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I agree with everything Ray has said, and I'll add a couple points as well.

I butcher and debone two or three chickens every week for the house, and I always use a carbon steel blade. The blade shape I use is a Japanese Deba, which is a great all-purpose knife shape that's excellent for meat, as well as chopping vegetables. That said, I never chop *through* the bones. I honestly can't think of a reason why someone would, since chicken bones tend to splinter instead of getting cleanly sliced. The lone exception to this is when I separate the keel (breastbones) from the back, and there's some teensy little ribs in there - those you could cut with a child's safety scissors.

Butchering a chicken is all about knowing the anatomy, and separating the various pieces at the joints. You're going to want a knife with a sharp point, like a Deba or Sujihiki, so that you can get into those joints and cut the tendons that keep them together. The same style of knife is excellent for other meats and fishes, but with the exception of fish, I wouldn't recommend cutting bones with them at all (again, echoing Ray).

I have a set of Henckels Professional S, and while they're great knives, my carbon steel blades significantly outperform them. My wife loves them though.


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Old 07-26-2010, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckluftinger View Post
Ray, I suppose I need to "rediscover" non-stainless blades. When I started in the cook trade, there were still a few old carbon blades around, and we all made an effort to get rid of them in the name of "progress". At the time the catch phrase was sterility and sanitation. Wooden cutting boards had to make way to plastic, and carbon steel was replaced by stainless. I had a nice old carbon blade in one of the hotels i worked at, which had just that patina you describe from years of service, no doubt. When they "modernized" the kitchen all the enameled ovens were replaced with stainless, the old tiled floors became poured resin, and all the hardwood counter surfaces were thrown out. Same with the knives. I remember my ex wife using it to split kindling. You are right, being stained doesn't make it unsanitary, but it may take some convincing - especially a health inspector.
Using carbon steel in your kitchen is fine and up to you, but using them in a commercial kitchen is forbidden in some areas. My uncle is a butcher for a local grocery chain. He can legally only use stainless.
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Old 07-27-2010, 08:45 PM
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I have been making knives for only a year, but I have been cooking for around fourty. Carbon blades will discolor onions when you cut them and they will definately develop a patina in no time at all, but a well made (good geometry and good heat treat) carbon blade will cut circles around a mass produced stainless blade. I personally prefer a 12" chef's for most of my cooking chores and my wife has learned to appreciate it as well. Still, the choice in steel is a matter of personal preferance and is probably secondary to execution and design on the part of the maker. A thick edge will not make an efficient kitchen knife regardless of the steel you choose. Handle design is also very important. Some like a log to hold on to while others prefer a very small diameter handle. I realize this may not have helped, but it poses questions you should consider on your journey.

I use a forged 5160 12" chef's knife that I made and I love it. I am constantly amazed at how well it cuts and how long it holds an edge.

I mostly get requests for 10" knives.
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Old 07-28-2010, 09:11 AM
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The grip is important, true. For our purpose, wood or some shaped form of plastic, micarta or other synthetic is probably the only choice. The molded poly grips so common these days are probably beyond a hobbyist's capabilities. I actually like those types, because they are very practical. Easy to keep clean, don't get slippery when wet or greasy, and they are molded to fit into your palm better. They make a knife look cheap and industrial, though. Not a lot of romance here, but in my world practical is good. If you have to hold on to your knife for ten hours straight you learn to appreciate the subtleties of an "ergonomically" well made knife, and they're not always the most pleasing to the eye. One of the best knives I ever saw was an ugly Swedish made job which had a screaming red (I mean FLUORESCENT) molded hi-density poly grip and a super sharp, almost to a mirror finish polished blade. It was sharp like a razor, and kept going and going like that battery rabbit. It had good balance, not too heavy on the back end, and easy to control in the point. It's hard to quantify, but after all these years, i can pick up any knife and within a few seconds i can tell if it's good or not - to my preference, of course. Different people have different hands, work habits and so on. I have given away $200 knives because i couldn't get used to them - one of them was a Wuesthof Santoku. Useless as far as I'm concerned. Hope we're not confusing the issue too much, gigante!


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