MEMBER ITEMS FOR SALE
Custom Knives | Other Knives | General Items
-------------------------------------------
New Posts | New PhotosAll Photos



Go Back   The Knife Network Forums : Knife Making Discussions > Factory Knife Customization & Mid-Tech Boards > Randall Knives Forum

Randall Knives Forum Discuss Randall Knives

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-19-2021, 08:43 AM
Chipndale Chipndale is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 4
Older Heiser Sheath Dating Help for Model 3-7

I am new to Knife network and the Randall Forum. I'm seeking help to to learn more about the two Randall Model 3 -7 knives and what I think are uncommon Heiser sheaths. I purchased the Wickersham book and it has not helped in dating the features of these knives.

1. The light brown sheath with cross guard keeper had brass buttons, (marked inside snap "DOT") that might typically have been seen on older Moore sheaths. Was this just old inventory stock that Randall would use on later sheaths? I've not seen this feature on Heiser sheaths before and I'm hoping to learn more about this. What range for date would this knife been made it.

2. The dark brown sheath is a corn row sheath. What era were corn row sheaths made? The typical knife model stamping on the back of the sheath is different. What is the meaning (if any) of the "I I" stamp over the Heiser Logo? Any help with explaining this and dating the knife features would be appreciated.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Heiser stamps 3-7.JPG (411.7 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg Randall 3-7 stag.JPG (451.5 KB, 20 views)

Last edited by Chipndale; 01-19-2021 at 08:47 AM. Reason: Upload photos
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-19-2021, 09:46 AM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 949
Welcome.

The Shop and Heiser ran out of brown button logo snaps twice during their tenure. The first was very early 50's. The second was very early 60's. This second time was for a much shorter period of time and only a limited number of models were affected. Here are a couple of examples of 3-6 sheaths from that period:


There are a couple of disconnects between your first sheath and these early 60's sheaths:
1. The snaps are different. I've seen your snaps on early 50's Heiser sheaths and "Johnson Casselberry" sheaths, but not early 60's Heisers. Your diagonal keeper rules out early 50's.
2. If the sheath is original to the knife, then the early 60's are ruled out because for all intents and purposes "pinning" a stag handle was discontinued after 1957.
Bottom line is I don't have an explanation for those snaps.

Some Heiser sheaths from the early 50's exhibit that "II" mark as well as model or blade length numbers. To my knowledge, no one knows why, but it was a fairly common marking. Some have hypothesized that the marking designated a specific Randall dealer.



Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Maybe someone else can shed some more light.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-19-2021, 11:27 AM
Chipndale Chipndale is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 4
Thank you BoBlade. I appreciate your response and it was very helpful and interesting. I am pretty confident the sheath is original to the knife. I was unaware of the button shortage in the early 50's. I have seen Heiser sheaths with diagonal keepers that were pretty well documented (Hunt) as carried in the Korean War. The button shortage may explain the unusual buttons. The previous owner of this knife served (stateside) during the Korean War.

I have a followup question on "corn row" Heiser sheaths. When did Heiser transition from "corn row" to the more typical rough backs?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-19-2021, 11:41 AM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 949
Don't believe everything you read or see in books. That sheath with a diagonal keeper on page 81 of Bob Hunt's first book (Randall Knives in Wartime) is NOT Korean War era. The narrow stone pocket flap alone belies this claim. Another example is the "WWII" Model 4 on page 43: Bo didn't offer a Model 4 until after the war. Another "tell" is the peened tang: No peened tangs during the war years. Bob was one of the Randall "greats", but he wasn't infallible.

My best estimation of when cornrows phased out was "mid 50's".
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-19-2021, 01:45 PM
Chipndale Chipndale is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 4
Points well taken. I appreciate your insight into this.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-19-2021, 01:51 PM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 949
I'm happy to help as I'm able. You have two great knives there. I only collect Model 3's, so they are near and dear to my heart. Best wishes....
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-20-2021, 03:54 PM
crutchtip crutchtip is offline
Steel Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 103
I agree with Ron on the dating of the knife on page 81 of Bob's first book. It could be that he took the liberty of using the etched date as something it wasn't, UNLESS, the sheath was a replacement. That would be the only way it saw Korean War period, or maybe Trska was stationed in Korea post war.

It is not unheard of that a carried knife will remain in good serviceable condition, while the sheath takes the beating, particularly in a tough environment like Korea.

I do not recall the back story on this one 100%, but IIRC he acquired the knife from Mr. Traska himself or a family member. So it is possible his claim that it was carried in Korea based on that presumption.

If I was relying on the knife/sheath combo as it is, again, I agree with Ron.

I will also add, that when the book was first published almost 20 years ago, there was still a lot of research and assessment of what was what across the spectrum of Randall knives and the history. So, there are a couple blunders here and there, but know the Hunt actually did research, with hands on examination of what he wrote about. For the most part as time marched on, his subsequent publications were less susceptible to errors.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-20-2021, 06:11 PM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 949
Joe,

It's just not the sheath: A Korean era 4-7 would have a larger belly and a blade flat. Example:

Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-20-2021, 09:51 PM
Chipndale Chipndale is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 4
To a novice at Randall knives (as I am), it also would appear that Bob may have continued this error in attributing other knives to the Korean War era (early 50's). I'm referring to the knives and sheaths on Pg. 37 and 39 in "Randall Military Models". Was there also an error identifying these? The sheath on page 37 t seem to have similar features to that of the light brown Heiser sheath in my original post. (ie. the diagonal strap and small pocket flap). Bobs comment on pg 36 that "the diagonal keeper distinguishes this Heiser from other period sheaths." "Thought to be of later production, there are many examples of this type of sheath design seen throughout the 50's." Was this also incorrect?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-20-2021, 11:52 PM
crutchtip crutchtip is offline
Steel Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBlade View Post
Joe,

It's just not the sheath: A Korean era 4-7 would have a larger belly and a blade flat.
The knife you pictured could be 49-50 even, but the blade grind as you know started changing around that same time. Most if not all models got narrower blades, the high choil, and narrower ricasso like the Traska knife has. Many folks refer to the choil as the "fish hook" variety

I am only saying it is possible the knife made the conflict albeit late, which ended in the summer of 1953 - except for the sheath which muddies the water.

It would be interesting to know what the significance of the date really is. I don't think Bob made up the story it was when the knife was received (7/51), he heard it from someone. If it is true, then the only explanation I could come up with is a replacement sheath.

I had a documented 4-7 that was in the war, identical blade grind, but the earlier sheath with wide stone pouch flap and handle keeper.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-21-2021, 01:01 AM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 949
I follow you on your logic on the knife, but that date of 7/1951 was also on the back of the sheath which is why I'm skeptical of the knife as well.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-21-2021, 08:00 AM
crutchtip crutchtip is offline
Steel Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipndale View Post
To a novice at Randall knives (as I am), it also would appear that Bob may have continued this error in attributing other knives to the Korean War era (early 50's). I'm referring to the knives and sheaths on Pg. 37 and 39 in "Randall Military Models". Was there also an error identifying these? The sheath on page 37 t seem to have similar features to that of the light brown Heiser sheath in my original post. (ie. the diagonal strap and small pocket flap). Bobs comment on pg 36 that "the diagonal keeper distinguishes this Heiser from other period sheaths." "Thought to be of later production, there are many examples of this type of sheath design seen throughout the 50's." Was this also incorrect?
The general rule of thumb is the handle keeper was phased out in the mid-50's, maybe 1954-55, on many models. That is not to say that you may not get one some time later as the shop generally did not use a first in first out policy. So for a period, you could get handle or diagonal keeper. I don't know exactly what Bob meant with his statement you quote, but I doubt that the change in keeper style took very long to become the staple. Some models still use the handle keeper to this day.

IF you look at the combo on pigs 33-34, you will see the handle keeper and a narrower stone pouch flap. Then on page 30-31, you will see the classic late 40's to early 50's sheath with wde flap and handle keeper.

There was often overlap of various lengths of time when the shop made changes.

Ron -

I reviewed some photos, and it seems to be a stretch to put the knife in the Korean War with that sheath. If the date wasn't on the blade/sheath, I think you would agree that knife would be mid-50's at the earliest. In other words, post war.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-21-2021, 09:00 AM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 949
10-4, Joe. You can put any date you want on a knife with an electric pencil.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-21-2021, 08:36 PM
crutchtip crutchtip is offline
Steel Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 103
roger that.

Would surely like to know what the date meant assuming Bob was given bad information.

Perhaps the date of entering service, not the knife, the guy!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-22-2021, 01:28 AM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 949
So would I. Chances are we never will. Just another "Randall mystery" for the ages.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
a, back, bee, blade, book, brass, common, guard, handle, help., interesting, knife, knives, logo, made, military, pinning, randall, sheath, sheaths, shop, stag, stag handle, tang


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
help dating model 1 Rigbone Randall Knives Forum 5 01-08-2021 11:26 AM
Help in dating anot older Randall model 18 Grandall1972 Randall Knives Forum 12 04-22-2017 04:49 AM
Early Heiser model C sheath samg Randall Knives Forum 9 12-04-2015 02:38 PM
Dating a model 8-4 samg Randall Knives Forum 11 12-02-2015 12:10 PM
Dating an older Opinel John T. Jeffery Factory Knife & Mid-Tech Discussion 2 05-18-2010 08:44 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:12 PM.




KNIFENETWORK.COM
Copyright © 2000
? CKK Industries, Inc. ? All Rights Reserved
Powered by ...

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
The Knife Network : All Rights Reserved