Damascus by trial and error

[boatbuilder]

This has been a great holiday for me this year. I have been able to spend some major time in the knife shop. I even spent 6 hours grinding knives on Christmas day.
The last 2 days, I have been going hard on making Damascus. I have made a lot but nothing really turned out how I planned it. I have been trying to make some mosaic patterns and nothing seems to be going the way I think it should. I also spent about 6 hours on the milling machine this afternoon and was thinking about my process of making the billet.
I think I have been starting with to many layers(50). When I weld it it seems like I squeeze nit in the press a little to much. The sides are not bulging real bad but I still have to squeeze it to make the center weld. Another thing I think I have been doing wrong is taking the billet to small before I cut it and 4 way it.
So tonight I made up 4 billets that are 31 layers thick. I welded them and then re-squared them, then forged them out to 1-1/2" square and stuck them in vermiculite.
Tomorrow, I will mill them completely square(2sides) and then 4 way them together. I will then forge it out to 1-1/2" again and then do the same process over again.
Once this is done I will accordion fold it and see what I get.
Does this sound like it will work?

Jim

[Ed Caffrey]

That does my heart good to hear you to say those things, and think along those lines! It sounds like your at the threshold of "reverse engineering" your damascus...which is a good thing. I've never tried to explain that to you before, simply because until a person gains some experience, it never makes sense. It's all about thinking what you want in the finished product, them thinking backwards, about what you have to do to achieve it.
Various patterns will look different, depending on the number of layers you start with....for example, when I make straight "W" pattern, I rarely start with more than 15-20 layers, where as with a random, twist, I'll build up as many layers as possible at the start.

Your on the right track and have taken "the next step" in your Damascus Journey! Good on ya!

[boatbuilder]

Had another long day in the knife shop. It is a lot easier to stay on track with what you are doing when you are alone.
The 4 billets that I welded together and 4 way'd turned out good. I drew this billet out and cut it in 4 equal pieces and have it ready to weld and draw out again.
I took my time and surface ground the sides that will be joined. I think this helps getting a good weld.
I learned today that after you mig weld the billet together for a dry weld that you should grind the majority of weld off before forge welding the billet together. I welded it fairly cold so I didnt get much penetration but had quite a bit of build up. Then i had to grind into the billet to get all the mig weld out. Not fun. I hate grinding
#1 pic- 1st time I 4 way'd it
#2 pic- sides to be joined surface ground
#3 pic- billet welded solid for dry weld
#4 pic- had to grind out the mig weld after forge welding the billet
#5 pic- result of the 4 way.
Jim

[cdent]

Hey Jim,

If you don't like how the pattern is coming out, just run a few weld beads on the billet. They look pretty good!

Waiting to see how it unfolds, Craig

[BrianT]

Hey Jim

Cool looking pattern. I am working on something similar myself.

A couple of things to consider is when welding your 4 bars together, I grind a very slight bevel on the edges that will be welded so I have a tiny "V" where the weld will be. I then mig weld this and grind off the weld flush leaving the tiny "V" filled with weld. The "V" is very shallow -- maybe 1/32" These side welds are to only seal up the billet. I rely on a good fit to the pieces and full welds on the ends to keep the bars form moving while forge welding.

Another thing I do is after I surface grind 1 side of the bar, I clamp the ground side to an angle plate on my mag chuck rather than just placing the bar on the chuck. This insures that I have 2 ground sides that are square to one another even if my bar wasn't forged perfectly square.

Brian

[boatbuilder]

Brian
Thanks for the info.
The first time I did a dry weld I never ground the welds off before the first heat and squeeze. As sson as I took it out of the forge and seen the welds I realized they need to be ground off prior to 1st weld.
After you do your first weld do you grind a groove to remove the mig weld down the length off your billet on all 4 sides?
I will be using a angle bar clamped to the billet to make surevthe billet is square. Great info and thanks again.
Jim

[BrianT]

Jim

The welds that I make on the sides are so thin after grinding them off that I do not have to worry about them affecting the billet. What doesnt just scale off while forging seems to always be removed when grinding the billet for the next step.

A word of caution here -- The smaller the welds on the side are, the more risk you take in having one of those welds break and allowing air into your billet. The goal here is to have a wled good enough to do the job, but small enough so as to not affect the billet.

The below is my setup for getting square corners. The 1 2 3 block doesn't allow enough magnetism through to affect the setup and is there for support of the billet. The ground side is against the angle plate and held ther by the clamp. I only grind the 2 sides that I need.



Brian

[boatbuilder]

When I welded up my billet with the mig I did round the corners(took the burr off) of the billet before I stacked them. I then set my mig very low for minimal penetration. After mig welding I did grind off all the excessive weld. After my first forge weld I ground a groove where the mig was in the hot billet to make sure I had no mig contamination. Seemed to work.
Brian, I appreciate the info.
Thanks
Jim

[Ed Caffrey]

When I grind off MIG material after dry welding, I often do it with a 7" angle grinder. I've found that if I grind while the billet is still hot (somewhere around a "black heat") as I grind, the MIG material takes on a very different hue/color than the surrounding material.....which helps me ensure I remove all of it.

There are also times that I will anneal billets and mill the MIG off.....it really all depends on what I'm trying to accomplish (and sometimes on just how big a hurry I'm in to get it done!)