rules concerning hademade knives

Hay has any one heard about some new rules governing what constitutes a hand made knife? I was told that you may have to have information available as to what machines were used to make your knife and if certain machines were used then it was not considered hand made. As I play with this in my mind its almost a catch 22. I use a metal cutting band saw, a drill press, a bader B-3, and a buffing wheel as my machines and I consider my knives hand-made. When I build a pocket knife I still use pins (no screws of Teflon coated spacers etc.) I like the old style pocket knives with a touch of the custom technics added to them such as 45 degree angles on the bolsters and hollow ground blades and file work. I feel that to get this in a pocket knife it has to be hand made. It doesn't matter to me what machine I used to get there it still had to be done by my hands on a one to one basics. I do not want to take any credit away from the person who uses all hand tools. You definitely have more patients than I have and truly deserve to be called hand made. Trying to define this in my mind I feel that when your trade has reached the point of mass production then you have left the hand made status. Lets talk about it!!!!

I read something on this in Blade a while back. They were discussing the use of CNC machines, jiggs and other mass production tools in the creation of a "custom made" or "hand made " knife. The view were very diverse and good arguments were made on both sides.

I'm with you, I do not use jigs or anything, I just hand grind my blades on power equipment. I figure they qualify and a hand made custom knife.

There are many schools of thought about this, many say if you use CNC milling it is no longer handmade, others say CNC makes the tolerances tighter, more sure. For me I guess it comes down to this, what does the end product look like? Is it a knife I want to carry, show, collect. Is it something that will hold up for me?

For example, have you seen the Scrade-Barnett collaboration yet? Great knife, looks custom, but I am sure they will use CNC for it. Would I buy one, YES, I might not call it "handmade" but I would be proud to have it in my collection, it's a great piece. Many make too much of the "handmade" thing. Before you all gang up on me, I LOVE handmade/custom knives, my business. But the standards are there to be broken, that's the fun of standards, some of the greatest people, not just knife makers, have become famous/infamous/rich/poor by breaking the rules. You have to have some fun in life. What they gonna do, drum you out of the knife making community because you don't fit their mold? That's what custom knife making is all about, breaking out of the regular mold, being different.

Les, if you were at a knife show, like the LV classic and came up on a Schrade-Barnett, would you have it taken off the table, of course you would know it was not technically a handmade knife. What if the person, had 40 of them and they were selling like hotcakes? Obviously if that person had 40 Cases or Gerbers it's easy to decide, but the lines are getting blurred everyday more and more. So what is handmade? To me, it starts with a unique design, executed well, by one, maybe 2 persons. The machines become less important to me, most makers use enough machinary to fill a huge workspace. And it cost more than I make in a year. Hey whatever works.

How about this, is it wrong for a guy who makes maybe 50 knives, not the same design, but he uses a CNC mill to get that exacting tolerance that the hand can't get. Is he then not a handmade knife maker because of this? Where do you draw the line between handmade/ and factory?

Will I be ostracised for buying his knives? Should I be? Who would know? Who cares? It just irks me, when someone, or someones get together and decide for me what is handmade and what is not. That is for me as a dealer, and a collector to decide for myself. I say, unless you are pumping one design out by the 10's nay hundreds, no matter what equipment is being used the knives are a personal statement from the maker and in my eyes a hnadmade/custom knife.

Ok folks, give it to me ;-)

That is an argument that will never be settled. I have only been around the custom knife community for a few years and I have been a maker for the last year. Armed with that info, take my opinion as you will.

There are certain tasks in the knifemaking process that are so mechanical (not machine wise, but process wise), that it does not require skill to accomplish. Scribing a pattern, cutting it out with a bandsaw, drilling holes...these are all examples of that process. Whether it is done with a hacksaw or a bandsaw, to me, is irrelevant to the process. There is a certain knowledge base required, like understanding blade speeds, teeth configuration, drill press speeds for different diameter bits, but again, these are knowledge based, not skill based. You do it a few times and you remember.

To me, the defining line comes to areas that require craftsmanship, good hand-eye coordination, a sense of design and space. Grinding the blade, tapering the tang, filework, guards, bolsters, handle fitting, blade lock-up, blade centering, etc. These are skill based tasks. They must be learned by hand. Some never stand up to the task. I have met guys who tried knifemaking and quit because they could never get the hang of grinding. Yes, all these functions can be duplicated by the machine, but this is the point where I define craftsmanship. I can drill a hole just as good as Ron Lake. I cannot grind a blade as good as Ron Lake. My first hole ever drilled in a knife blank is probably as good as the last hole Mr. Lake might ever drill into a knife, even if it is his 100,000th. I could grind twice as many blades as Ron and never do it half as good. I am sure I can operate a machine that grinds blades as good as Ron Lake, but we lose something there, don't we?

Not every knifemaker wants to hand craft knives for the rest of his life. Some get burned out and some just lose the passion. I am sure Chris Reeve can still hand grind and hand fit a nice blade, but he has established a machine built production knife that is extremely well built and has made him a wealthy man. You can't begrudge him that, but you cannot call his knife a custom knife, and he should not be able to represent himself as a custom knifemaker in the Guild. I am not singling him out, but just using him as a example. There are others who have crossed what I define as the line between custom and machine made.

It is an annual rite of winter that someone drags up this subject to make a lot of fuss about nothing. The arguement should be ignored.

High tech machines will be employed when the buying public demand features that can only be done on those machines and are willing to pay for the machine time. The people doing the most complaining probably have never paid more than $100 for a knife in their lives and never will.

If you use high tech machinery boast about it so everybody knows that you go all out to give the public the best product you can.

Thatnks George ;-) That's a topic blocker if ever I saw one :P

I think George is right on. On some of the other groups, I've seen the emails fly for a month sometimes over the same thing...

A more important issue than tools is the integrity of the maker. as long as a maker never misrepresents his work, whatever the manner in which it is made, he is doing right. You will have a few people buying knives that want what they want. They will seek out a maker that does everything with files and paper if that's what they want. Put some distance between you and a maker that has parts lazer cut, ground, and then claims it all as his own work. Just my 2c worth.

I don't think the subject is blocked, there are always new knife makers like me that have to run in to this question sooner or later and define an answer for themselves. I had the great honor of having a maker take a liner lock apart for me to see how it was done. I knew that I will not be able to do the same thing as good without the help of a machine. It has set a new goal for me. If a machine helps me solve a problem without taking over then when I can I will buy it. The parts that I can do by hand I will. If some body says my knife is a custom knife not a hand made one then so be it. I have found here and with other makers that I have talked to that that is the general decision of the knife maker population.

I'm not sure why, but for some reason knowing that a maker is employing a CNC type process to construct their work causes me to look at the final product like a manufactured piece. The fact that they can reproduce an exact copy of the knife they just turned out gives me the creeps.

I suppose, however, the argument could be made that the minute you employ any tool in the production process that automates the job, you're crossing the line.

If anything, a knife constructed of CNC type milled and machined parts is little more than a kit knife in the end. The maker becomes an assembly technician.

I think the fine-line is defined by "hand-made or machine-made" and hinges on mass reproducibility.

What do you all think?

Alex

yup, but my shop is full of machines, all controlled by me manually whether it be my dremel for slitting liners, or my lathe for slotting guards... with the exception of my folder screws, pivot pins, thumbobs, etc... not one piece is made by CNC or farmed out(i.e. laser cut). I still consider em handmade

Every lick of my knives is hand made, and it shows. I have never made a perfect knife, nor have I ever made two exactly the same. Needless to say, I try very hard to do the best job of which I am capable with each knife, but if you study them hard, you'll find tiny indications that they are, indeed, hand made.

If perfection is your goal, CNC is the answer.

If a piece of yourself, a chunk of your learning curve, evidence of your humanity - and your dedication - is something you are proud of, you can shout to the world, "Hey! I did this all by myself! Not bad for no machines, huh?" I am in that camp, and I imagine I'll probably stay there.

Don ...

That may be the best answer on the subject I've ever read!

Alex

The question never gets easier, but the answers are definitely getting better.
Customs are not about rules. Rather the limits of what cutlery can be. Perfection is a perception not a reality.
Many have drooled when they've seen my shop. I can build just about anything I want - and I do. Equipment and knives.
No one has hands that can make a good knife without tools. trust me.
For me, the more tools I have, the more capability I have.
I'm not interested in CNC. My stuff is all one of a kind.
Some use laser cutting, water jets, CNC etc. As long as the maker doesn't represent everything as hand made by him, then it's up to the customer if they want to buy.
I know of knifemakers out there who sell kit knives as their own. That to me is a bigger issue then what "amount" of machinery someone uses.

Rules set boundaries. Handmade knives should not be limited by those boundaries. Every customer has a different idea of what they want. They will find the maker for it.

I can't help but post a reply on this one. where does it stop ? all the way back to the first knife? I don't know who made the first knife but every change since then is a result of progress . most of these changes were embraced as improvements . do we need to make our own files ? smelt our own steel? I dont feel there is an answer just opinions,
do most customers deal with this question when making a purchase or do they just have to have that knife.
I think (as ussual ) George is right)
Just a countryboy makers opinion.

According to MERRIAM-WEBSTER "tool" is defined as "something(as an instrument or appartus)used in performing an operation or necessary in the pratice of a vocation or profession..." . With this in mind I would say it has alot to do with the ability to exactly reproduce something on a consistent basis .Plus I know of 'no one' except maybe "SUPER MAN" that posesses the ability to form steel with nothing other that his hands and brute strength .So this is my 2 cents.