Different steels..

[Larry]

I was wondering if some one here could tell me what the first two steels would be the best from the list below. I know that there are a couple more better ones out there.

GIN-1
Aus 6m
Aus 8 A
154-CM
ATS- 34
VG-10
D2
BG-42
440-C
425
420HC
440 B
Thanks
Larry

[Mike Hull]

I would pick BG42, and 440C. But D2 has to be right up there also, although not really a true stainless like the others.

BTW;Welcome to the CKD. Enjoy.

[jeffj]

What do you want to do with these steels? Are you making knives? Or are you just wanting to buy production blades?

If you are making, then there are some steels in the list that you can't buy: AUS 6M, AUS 8 (or 8A) and VG-10. These are only available in Japan. GIN-1 may also be unavailable.

As for the others, from all the comments I've seen and anecdotal evidence suggests the following rating:

BG-42
ATS-34 and 154-CM
440C
440B
425 and 420HC

D2 is excellent, but is a different kind of steel. More course grained and semi-stainless. I would rank it with BG-42 in terms of quality use in a blade.

Of course...your mileage may vary. These are only my opinions.

One thing that must be pointed out is that the most important aspect of any blade is the heat treat. A good steel with a bad heat treat can make a bad blade as well as any steel.

If you are just looking for opinions then I would say that D2, BG-42, and VG-10 are the best steels that you list above. BG-42 and VG-10 being very high grade stainless steels. ATS-34 and 154-CM are also very good followed closely by 440C. All these properly heat treated make excellent knives.

Jeff Jenness

[Larry]

Thanks gentlemen,
I was looking at some knives in a catolog and was confused as to the different steels.
So now with your help it has helped me and I really appreciate that.
I will some day, soon, be buying a custom hunting knife with S30 V steel.

Thanks again,
Larry

[Keith Montgomery]

In this group I think that Gin-1 often does not get the credit it deserves as a very good knife steel. In my experience it is right up there with ATS-34 and 154CM. Properly heat treated it holds an edge really well and is quite easy to sharpen.

I am in agreement as to the merits of BG-42 (when hardened at 61-62RC can get a little brittle and be a bit of a bear to sharpen) and D-2. D-2 is my favorite of this group, though as has been stated it is not as stainless as the others.

The choice of steel is only the first part of the equation. As Jeff mentioned, a proper heat treat is critical to the final quality of a blade and so is the grind.

[Jason Cutter]

I'm a forged carbon steel man, so I personally see 52100 and O-1 carbon steels as the most effective, cutting steels, even if they aren't stain resistant. onestly, nothing cuts like good old carbon steels. D-2 is a cutting machine also.

I am branching into stainless steels due to customer demand.

ATS-34/154CM is the benchmark for stainless steels really - its that widespread. With modern technology, there's no reason to use anything less than ATS-34. Even 440C is "outdated" but it will take a really nice finish, so would be ideal for an art knife or one that would see little use.

I have used RWL-34 on a few knives. Its the powdered metallurgy version of ATS-34 - heat treated the same way. I can actually tell a small difference in improved performance over ATS34. BG-42 tempered to 59-60Rockwell does seem to also hold an edge a little longer again.

I read somewhere that most people would be hard-pressed to tell the difference (performance) between 440C, ATs-34, BG42 and VG-10. Jeff Jenness' "rating list" seems to make sense, but with VG-10 at the top. Its the one with all the goodies - every element that makes a difference in a cutlery steel, apparently. But then again, I've checked out a Japanese made cleaver with laminated VG-10, cost $350US and cuts like absolute crap. Won't hold an edge. It DEFINITELY is up to the heat treat.

But please stay away from the 420, 425 knives, unless you want something that will never rust ever. 440B is also a bit of a doubt but 440B Modified which is used by ? Aitor and ? Muela is half-decent and behaves like 440C. Its got some vanadium in it. Honestly ATS-34 blades are a dime a dozen nowadays, but the good heat treat ones aren't. Check out ones cryo-treated.

Sorry for carrying on.

Cheers.

[Larry]

Thanks gentlemen,
I have learned a lot from your posts and it has opened up my eyes a little wider.

Now comes the $64000 question; how does one know if the steel in the knife has been heat treated right, before buying?

I guess you just have to buy one from a good knife maker and trust him to do it right.

Also do the custom knife makers mark their blades as to what the steel is? Probably would be like buying a car with a 240 H.P. engine, but not knowing forsure if the engine thats in your car will actually produce 240 H.P.

[Jason Cutter]

Larry, it can be hard to tell if the heat treat is right. Very few makers, shops will actually let you "test" their knives. I think it does come down to HONESTY and CONSISTENCY with a particular brand, model or maker.

For instance, I test every blade once it is made, prior to final finishing. I grind an edge that is actually thinner than what it will eventually be, shave, do an edge flex on a brass rod, whittle wood, shave hair, whack some pine (not the whole 2x4 ABS test, though) then shave some more. Then I grind off the edge, hand rub finish the blade (the temper lines start showing up now) and then do filework on the spine of the knife which demonstrates that I have the differential heat treat working for me (soft spine).

Thats what I do to assure myself that everythings going to plan and the customer will get what I promised. However, I'm unlikely to let the customer do THAT themselves. I pass the information on.

If I get things professionally heat treated, that mob also Rockwell tests everything and gives me a reading.

But as a customer, it seems like you have to trust the account of the maker, shop and see what happens when you use the piece.

As a word of caution, it doesn't mean that if you are only collecting and never using the knife, that the steel shouldn't be properly heat treated. Bear in mind that the stainless qualities of most stain resistance steels is optimised only when properly heat treated. I had a 440C "art knife" that rusted in its sheath after 2 years and I later found out that the maker had never heat treated any of the art knives he made because he believed correctly that they would never be used.

Perhaps others have other suggestions.

Cheers.

[Mike Hull]

Originally posted by Jason Cutter
I'm a forged carbon steel man, so I personally see 52100 and O-1 carbon steels as the most effective, cutting steels, even if they aren't stain resistant. onestly, nothing cuts like good old carbon steels. D-2 is a cutting machine also.


ATS-34/154CM is the benchmark for stainless steels really - its that widespread. With modern technology, there's no reason to use anything less than ATS-34. Even 440C is "outdated" but it will take a really nice finish, so would be ideal for an art knife or one that would see little use.

Sorry for carrying on.

Cheers.

If you are saying that 440C is "outdated", then going by that criteria, 52100, and O1 are antiques.
Saying that 440C is only fit for an"art knife, or one that would see little use", is totally preposterous, as is my tongue in cheek statement about the antiquities. Properly heat treated 440C will take an edge as well as O1, and hold it just as long.
It might not be the latest "wonder steel", but it works just fine. It is also very tough. More so IMO than ATS34/154CM, but I doubt if many could tell any difference in performance.
Just to keep things straight here, I think O1, and 52100 are very good steels also.

[Larry]

Hmmmm! It sounds like this thread could go on and on, but it looks like it boils down to the heat treating.
I use to be a Steel Melter many years ago and we poured big steel castings. Most of which were just "mild" & "alloy" steel, nothing fancy. I know the heat treating of them big 8 ft dia. gears were very important.

My plan is to have a knife made for the use of cleaning big game animals and nothing else. So this is why I am inquiring about the different steels. I don't want anything that will rust and that it will hold a very good edge.

I am willing to go to $300 if that what it will take to get a very good blade.

Thanks guys ever so much.

Larry

[Mike Hull]

Larry, if you want stainless, that holds edge extremely well, try S30V. From all reports it is excellent stuff.
Here's a link to an ongoing discussion of it.

http://www.ckdforums.com/showthread....&threadid=9372

[Larry]

Thanks Mike,
I have heard of this steel before but never read anything about it

Thanks every one for the replies, I now know more then before.

Thanks again,
Larry

[Jason Cutter]

Mike,

Just IMHO, I never did like 440C. I must say that I am VERY new to the whole knifemaking thing and inasmuch as I don't like 440C - I don't like it because I notice a difference in edge holding between it and ATS-34 and the plain old carbon steels that I'm more fond of.

But what do I like about it ? It is REALLY STAINLESS. And gee, it takes a beautiful finish. Thats the main reason for me saying that it would go well on an "art knife." I probably need to define a bit better what meant. I meant that on a knife that you want to look good - 440C is REALLY nice. (As opposed to D-2 with its coarse grain structure - you'd need to put in so much more effort to get the same result.)

Thats just my experience so far. It may have to do with the way I'm using it, the types of edge I'm putting on and the limitations in terms of heat treatment avaialble here where I live. Not to mention that the suppliers here bring in ATS-34, RWL-34 and 440C for the same price. So for me, it simply reinforced my move to something else. I did notice a difference mind you, between a couple of batches of 440C - one certainly did everything better - polished, edge-held, ground more nicely.

But again, its a really personal thing and I already stated my bias that I like carbon steels, so any advice / endorsement I give will reflect that bias. So in terms of answering Larry's question - 440C would probably be a very good steel for the purposes he's stating. Definitely good heat treatment and maybe cryogenic treatment as well to get the most out of it.

About me saying that 440C is outdated, I must explain - my observation was that in the 1970's up till the 1990's 440C was the "in thing," reading in books and magazines. Then the best was regarded as 154CM / ATS-34 when the Loveless knives were most popular, then now the "trendy" thing is BG-42 and the CPM steels. These ideas change. I doubt if 440C ever went OUT of fashion. Just that other "wonder steels" have become more desirable for any variety of reasons.

They're all good steels and the statement I like to remember (again I can't remember who it was) was that most users won't be able to tell a significant difference between 440C, ATS-34, BG-42 etc. They all perform really well anyhow.

Cheers.