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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #181  
Old 05-15-2007, 11:54 AM
T-Wolf T-Wolf is offline
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Gents,this post is not about hair-splitting,that's been pretty well covered.Nor is it a debate,because in a battle of wits I usually show up unarmed.This is about truth in advertising,or just plain being honest with folks
We'll call our ficticious knifemaker Joe Blow.Through hard work,long hours,and attention to detail,Joe has managed to make a NAME for himself.As the orders pile up and so does the work,Joe realizes he could use some help.He hires a helper,we'll call him Harvey.Between Joe and Harvey,they start getting caught up,to the point that Joe now figures he can take some much needed time off.
Now 'ol Harve makes a dam good knife by now,so Joe don't come in as much as he did.He is still over-seeing the quality,but very little hands on work.But they are still marked with Joe Blow's NAME.Time goes by,sales are up, every one want's a genuine Joe Blow knife.The fly in the buttermilk is that by now,'ol Harve is getting a bad case of burnout too.
He needs some help,cause Joe only comes by to sign the checks.So he hires an apprentice,we'll call him Albert.Ya see where this is going? The quality starts to fall off just a tad,but that's a bunch in knifemaking.People still clamor for them,cause a genuine Joe Blow knife will be worth a lot of money someday,partly because of the NAME.Eut Joe ain't touched a knife in along time.Reckon this has ever happend?Sorry to be so long winded,but I just took my medication and this is the only game in town.Take care amigos.


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  #182  
Old 05-15-2007, 01:23 PM
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Sure, you bet it's happened but probably not all that often. I don't know if the quality issue applies or not but what you described is pretty much how I understand Bob Loveless's operation goes now. I'm sure we'd all be glad to have that problem eventually.

So, all that being agreed to, what's all that have to do with the price of tea in China (as the old saying goes)? Within the scope of this thread, and , depending on how those knives are made, some of the definitions may still apply and some won't - just as with any other knife. "Joe Blow' has become a name brand, nothing wrong with that, as long as the customer is fully informed of exactly what he is buying. The terms we have defined here will, hopefully, make it easier for the Joe Blow Company to accurately described what it is they do these days ....


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  #183  
Old 05-15-2007, 01:41 PM
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I think we've taken care of that with the sole authorship definition. . .
  #184  
Old 05-15-2007, 06:12 PM
T-Wolf T-Wolf is offline
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don't see it that way.To my mind,you're contradicting yourself.If Harvey made the knife,what's Joe's name doing on it?


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  #185  
Old 05-15-2007, 08:58 PM
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Because Harvey is an employee of Joe. Just like Buck. Mr. Buck does not make knives any more. He has employees that do that. It is a Harvey-made knife, made to the design and quality standards of Joe.

Rembrandt did the same thing. Art historians have had to go back and separate out the fine art pieces made by Rembrandt himself from those made by his employees and students.

Someday, it is possible that knife collectors will separate out Loveless knives from those made by his employees. . .
  #186  
Old 05-16-2007, 08:08 AM
T-Wolf T-Wolf is offline
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Yep,that would really be interesting.In the case of Buck,Gerber,and other factories,they do not have one persons name on them,with the word"maker' and his location.Evidently"sole authorship" doesn't count for much if there's a lot of money being made.


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  #187  
Old 05-16-2007, 08:17 AM
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QUOTE: Evidently"sole authorship" doesn't count for much if there's a lot of money being made.

You may well be right about that. S/A only counts when people want it to count. When 'Joe Blow' became a brand name S/A went out the window but 'Custom' or 'Customized' might still apply if they do business like Randall's does. All we are trying to do in this thread is give makers clearly defined terms do described what it is that they do. It will be up to the maker to apply those terms honestly ...


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  #188  
Old 05-21-2007, 08:37 AM
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Th result of the vote on whether or not to have a definition for knives made solely using hand tools was about 75% Against so I'll scrap that idea.

At this point, I can't think of any other terms that should be included in the definitions list but, as always, I'm open to your suggestions ....


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  #189  
Old 05-21-2007, 01:48 PM
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Ray,

I've paraphrased a definition for handmade/handcrafted. I didn't know which definition of "custom" we were using, so that needs to be added to this list. For the rest, I cut and pasted from past posts, so it looks like we have these terms defined:

Neo-Tribal: - A school of knife making that emphasises the enjoyment of the knife making process. N-T combines ancient and modern tools, materials, and techniques which can include such things as harvesting their own wood, using rosins instead of glue, and forging in wood or coal fires. N-T keeps the use of electricity to a minimum, prefers creative solutions over technology, while encouraging high-quality, original hand craftsmanship, innovation, and the efficient use of resources.

Forged Blade: A blade whose initial shape is created using hand guided forging equipment such as hydraulic presses and power hammers.

Hand Forged Blade: A blade whose initial shape is created in a forging process using only manual tools such as hammers, fullers, etc.

Mid-Tech/Semi-production - The blade, handle, or scales were blanked out by some automated process for which the maker supplied directions but the knife was otherwise assembled and finished by hand.

Sole Authorship: All of the major components of the knife were made by a single knife maker. This includes exotic materials such as damascus and mokume but not minor components such as pins, pivots, bolts, screws, rivets, and similar items. Any embellishment such as engraving, scrimshaw, carving, etc must be done by the knife maker. All processes such as heat treat, cryo, coatings, plating, etc must be done by the knife maker. Any accessories specifiacally made for this knife must be made by the knife maker.

Hand made/Hand crafted: Describes the process of knifemaking in which either a) tools are applied to the knife being made by manual dexterity or b) the knife being made is applied to a tool by manual dexterity. Tools may be powered or unpowered, as this definition distinguishes such knives as described here from those produced by computer assisted processes.

Homemade: Used to describe your mother's apple pie or your grandmother's quilt. Not to be applied to knives.

I've also added the following, which we can discuss if anyone wants to. Some of you may feel that it is already included in the "custom" definition:

Custom embellished: The process of adding decorative filework, inlays, or replacing handle scales, etc., to give a personalized, custom appearance to a commercially produced knife, whether that knife was previously finished (commercially made knife) or not (commercially made kit blade).
  #190  
Old 05-21-2007, 03:28 PM
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The current definitions which are the result of all the past discussions are posted in the very first post in this thread. Check there to see if you still think the Custom Embellished is needed.....


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  #191  
Old 05-21-2007, 06:35 PM
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Oops, didn't realize they were back there. No, I think the idea fits in somewhere with mid-tech or kit-tech.
  #192  
Old 05-21-2007, 08:52 PM
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How about the Period Piece that covers historical recreations or methods?

Jim


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  #193  
Old 05-22-2007, 08:27 AM
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Jim,

Aside from saying that the knife has to look like an old knife, give us some idea of what you think the major points of the definition should be for a knife to qualify as a Period Piece. If anyone else has suggestions for what characteristics would define a Period Piece please jump in .....


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  #194  
Old 05-26-2007, 09:17 AM
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Sorry, been doing the "two weeks a year" thing.

I would consider a period piece to cover blades that are made using the era's skills, techniques, materials & tools. Example, if you were to make a flint knife it would be completely napped, no lapidary tools. You would also use real sinew not artificial for attaching the blade to the handle. If you were making a Japanese piece you would hand forge it using their technique (sorry my knowledge of how Japanese differs is very small ), the handle materials couldn't be artificial (cord or leather) & using water stones not belts. Any embellishments and add-on, such as a sheaths, would also have to be period correct.

I'm not sure about including reproduction pieces that use modern tools and equipment. I love seeing them but they would fall into a whole different category. Now if someone used the same techniques as Michael Price to make a dagger & sheath, such as the blown pipe soldering instead of a torch, it would fall into a period piece.

Any other ideas?

Jim


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  #195  
Old 05-26-2007, 01:14 PM
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Personally, I am in favor of anything - such as this definition - that makes it possible to more clearly describe what we do. To play the devil's advocate (and based on the sad lack of enthusiasm for a hand tools only definition) I have to ask "Does anyone make knives that fall into this category?". We all know that there are many fine reproductions made but is there significant interest in making reproductions using only the tools and techniques appropriate to the period?

Speak up folks....


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