Kit Knives on the Custom market...what do you think?

[Ansoknives]

its all about representing your work honestly!

In Scandinavia we have thousands of makers.......II bet that 95% of those are "kitmakers" by US standards...the buy the blades from smiths and "bladegrinders" and then do the rest......

All these call them self knifemakers and I don?t think it is wrong...over here they don?t even need to tell they did not make the blade as noone expects it...people at shows are amazed when I tell them I did the whole thing myself......

[J.Arthur Loose]

I was thinking about this, Jens, knowing that the tradition in Scandinavia is for a Smith to make the blade but a Knifemaker to finish it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but usually the Smith puts his mark on the blade.

( Sorry, All, not to harp on it... )

[Kelly Carlson]

My apologies, if I misunderstood the intent of Jerry's comment "if the customer asks".
I do believe in full disclosure, whether or not the customer asks the right questions. Lack of disclosure is equivalent to misrepresentation.
Personally, I wouldn't object to placement of DDR identification on the blades, as long as it was small and discreet (I don't like large names or logos on any knives, as I think they detract from the flow and beauty of the product). I still wouldn't put my name on a blade which I didn't grind.
Alex's point about that limiting customization opportunities is valid, and individuals who are ethically challenged will find a way to eliminate it.
The kits are an excellent benefit to the knifemaking, as a whole. They will help to attract new makers, new collectors, and increase competition in the low/medium price ranges. Increased competition will result in improved quality and the generation of more new and innovative designs.
Defining good business ethics is fairly easy - is this how you would like to treated. Defining the terms "knifemaker", "custom", etc., is a semantics argument, and not as simple.
I make fixed blades and folders of my own design in their entirety, and put my name on them. Are they custom - No, as they are not made to customer specifications, but to designs which I have developed. Are they handmade - Yes.
I also assemble kit folders for resale, and many are to customer specifications, but I do not put my name on them. Are they custom - Yes. Are they handmade - only partially, and the specifics are disclosed verbally and in writing.
Am I a knifemaker in the pursuit of either activity? - I think the answer has to be Yes.
As this has become such an emotionally charged issue, and I do plan to continue to put together competitively priced folder kits, in addition to my own more expensive knives, my solution may be to also offer the kits for resale at my show tables. That way I'll provide even clearer verbal, written and visual disclosure of the product.

[Ed Caffrey]

Drac....
Don't worry, I wasn't fussing at you. Just using your great input as an example. I know your fairly new to this whole thing, but as time goes by, you will see that this business is really like that.

I also want to take the time to thank everyone for being so civil and respectful to each other on a thread that could have become nasty in short order. Once again, the folks of the CKD have proven that they are the best people in the knifemaking world! THANK YOU ALL!

Now......

On with the discussion......

[Guy Thomas]

Jens, you've brought up the point I was going to make using the Scandinavian knives as an example. Jonathan, you are quite right that the smiths all mark their blades. In Jen's part of the world, in general, a smith (Hans the Smith) makes the knife blade and a knifemaker (Peter the Knifemaker) put handles on them. It is not usally known as a "Hans Knife" but a "Peter Knife" with credit to the bladesmith. I say "with credit", this is actually understood and doesn't have to be pointed out over there. In our handmade market here in the states it is pretty much understood that the steel itself was not made by the knifemaker though there are examples of makers who do that also.

A blade does not make a knife, in fact a blade is pretty much useless without a handle. I have no problem with someone calling themselves knifemakers as long as they tell upfront they are making "kit" knives or are putting handles on MARKED handmade or factory blades. Is a blade ground by a maker and then heat treated by someone else a handmade knife? Of course it is and a responsible maker will say "heat treated by Paul Bos"!

This has really gotten a little out of hand but everyone has been very insightful and civil. Ed's original beef (and a very legitimate one) was that some people are assembling kits and not being very upfront with that fact and then selling them for custom or handmade prices. This is purely and siimply a deceitful practice.

Let common sense and honesty prevail here! (Now after reading this whole thread I hope I actually made sense with my post and actually made a point worth wasting your attention on!
)

[ghen]

I too want to join the chorus and thank everyone for an intelligent and mature debate, and exchange of ideas.

None of us want unscrupulous makers, finishers, whatever scamming the public.

I believe everyone agrees that is a seller is forthcoming about their product, and a buyer understands what they are getting, everyone should be OK with that.

Kit manufacturers marking their blades (liners, whatever) is not the answer (in my opinion).

The nature of steel is its workability, a dishonest person would remove the mark, further muddying the waters.

I will add one last thing:

1) I bought my 1st handmade knife in 1983, and was interested in them for several years previous. I've visited shops across the country, and have been taken aback by what some people call either "custom" or "handmade". Fortunately that is the exception, not the rule; much like this kit issue probably focuses a lot more on the exceptions (those who lie about a knive's beginnings) than the rule (those craftsmen who spend a lot of time on transforming our kits into beautiful knives). So I have been doing this for a while (albeit nowhere near your level Ed, your work leaves me breathless), my experience just leads me to a different conclusion about what is acceptable.



PEACE

GHEN

[ghen]

Editing my earlier post because I was mistaken.

Thank you aiiifish.

PEACE

GHEN

[Colin KC]

Drac,

Exactly what you said, if I make a bowie, then it follows a pre determined pattern (the bowie form)

Most fighters I make are a hybrid Loveless/with a persian influence.

Most knives made by knifemakers & Smiths the world over have plagiarised to an extent (how many variations on a sharp piece of metal c/w a handle can there be?

Now, I have had exactly 3 (three) paying customers, 2 (two) have come back for more (gotta love collectors) & each time they have asked for a variation on a particular knife (in one case a production knife:cool: )


BUT if (& the case may prove to be) I am asked to make a two bladed folder (knife blade & archealogical tool type thing) & I choose to buy two kits & adapt & re-form them, then it will be a custom knife made from two knife kits, & the customer better know for sure that it'll be the best knife that she'll get for the price. Because , I'll have the basic form premade & won't be making expensive mistakes with my customers money &/or my time.

Customer satisfaction (quality, trust & value) is always worth full disclosure

[Jason G Howell]

Not much more can be done in the way of an "original" knife design... drop point, clip, spearpoint, sheepsfoot, warncliffe, etc... Most knifemakers draw on their custom knife community for inspiration. I doubt any one of them can make a knife that they have never seen before. Certain aspects of a good knife I see somewhere ends up influences my design in some ways. Taking apart a Buck 110, tracing, then making probably illegal, but also bad taste. But should I want to make a lockback similar, I could eyeball it and make my own interpretation, but it would still be bad taste.

[Riffiki]

(deep breath)
Ok, Alex I can understand yer not marking the blades on the DDR kits, however do you have any problem with the kit builder marking one side of the blade "DDR-#"(with #=the model number) and the other with the builders mark?

That will tell anyone who cares to look that it is made from DDR kit whatever, and also who did the building/customization.

As for lying about anything that is just wrong period.

Ed,

Some like Coop, Osprey and others are doing beautiful and major reworkings of these kits and deserve to be able to place their mark on them without fear of being thought of as misleading the customers or future owners. This is not misleading but justified credit for the skill needed and work performed. As long as the nature of the underlaying kit is not consealed I fail to see a problem.

I have a friction folder bought back in 1988 from a maker out of Florida, he does not forge and I wanted a pattern welded blade. he got the "Damascus" for the blade and back spring from a man who is now an ABS Mastersmith. the way I read your and others post the name on my blade should be nobodys, the ABS Mastersmith forged the blade and back spring, also the mocum(sp) for the bolsters, the other maker made the rest and made it all fit right. I was told who did the forge work but the other maker's name is on the blade. He is the one I went to and did the
assembly and fitting work. By my reading of your posts he should not have marked the blade, I disagree.

I am not new to the knifemaking world I went to school with Mark Centofante and talked to his dad Frank about knives back in the '70's. I have been collecting and from time to time making knives since the late 60's and yes I was a young boy when I helped profile my first blade.

I repeat, "As long as the underlaying nature of the work is not concealed I see no problem with a craftsman signing/marking their work."

[KNAdmin]

Riffiki,

Exactly!

Sure, you are more than welcome to mark the model and designer on the knife anywhere you think it looks best. But, that's entirely up to you ... either way.

Alex

[Keith Montgomery]

From a buyers perspective, the only thing that would be important to me is full disclosure of the fact that the knife that I am looking at started out as a kit. That is being honest which is all that I ask.

If I were to purchase a knife that had had the authorship of the knife misrepresented, I would be furious at the person that perpetrated this fraud, but not at knifemakers as a whole. Some others might react quite differently to having this happen to them. Some might be turned off of the whole idea of custom knives. Especially if it is their first encounter with the world of custom/handmade knives.

You can not mandate or legislate honesty, ethics and integrity. People either have them or they don't. What must be done is when someone is found to be acting in a dishonest, unethical manner, they must be outted. Knifemakers themselves must let it be known to the buying public that they will not stand for this kind of behavior in their ranks. As far as I am concerned, this is all that can be expected.

I have found that knifemakers as a whole are amongst the most honest people that I have ever known. Never have I had even the slightest bad experience with any of my knife purchases. I sure am glad though that my first experience with a knifemaker was a good one or I may have turned away from custom knives and what a shame that would have been.

[whv]

fwiw
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i, too, am all for full disclosure - whether asked or not. that is why i insist on some sort of documentation for every knife that i purchase, from a note on the back of a business card to an email to framable certificates from the likes of Don Cowles and Audra Draper, indicating the source and type of materials. (email me for the story of how i learned to do this)
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i am also for a break in convention to allow each maker of a substantive part of a knife to mark it in some fashion in case it is separated from the documentation.
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as Les says, i am doing my homework. i try to read every thread on this forum to gather the information i feel necessary to become an informed buyer. many do not and some don't care. but at least the information should be available. join the contributors to help advertise this site. continue to point the ignorant here to learn what custom/handmade knifemaking and collecting are about.
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can we force people to be informed about their purchases? no - and we should not. but we owe it to the community (of which the fellow in Ed's beginning post is not a member) and to future customers to make certain that the information is available and to direct them to it.
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thanx

[tom mayo]

those emails of yours are just getting too harsh, so I will stop making my knives out of those kits that certain people are getting from ROC.....................:confused:





although the last couple were a little rough!!

[ghen]

No, no, no Tom, you just keep doing what you are doing.