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  #1  
Old 02-08-2007, 06:33 AM
obe obe is offline
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Unhappy 2 ton epoxy

I ad to remove two different scales because of goof ups. So after removing the pins I found that the epoxy did not hold as well as I had thought. They popped off rather easily. I roughed up the inside of the scales and the tang prior to clamping them on. Any suggestion or different glue? I followed the famous glue wars with a passion. I make sure I mix equally as close as possiable. Less than impressed with 2 ton. Obe.
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  #2  
Old 02-08-2007, 07:01 AM
AcridSaint AcridSaint is offline
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JB Weld, golf shafting epoxy or gorilla glue are all well thought of. I like to use gorilla glue, but a lot of folks complain about the mess it makes and cleaning up the knife after. Did you clean the surfaces with something like alcohol or acetone? It will make a difference.

There's a whole thread about which glues are the best, there's one loctite one that is really popular now because of that thread, but I've never used it.


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  #3  
Old 02-08-2007, 07:14 AM
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NJStricker NJStricker is offline
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What type of scales were you using. No matter the glue, preparation is everything. I've used 2 ton epoxy with good results, especially on non-stabilized woods (they won't come off no matter how hard you try). On stabilized woods, micarta, bone, etc., with a very smooth surface you'll have to rough up the hidden side a bit to get good bite. Another option might be to add a couple of hidden pins, using wooden dowels for the pins.

Another thing to consider. How old is your epoxy? It may have gone through its shelf life. Even if you purchased it new, if you got it at WalMart or the local hardware store, there's no telling how old it is.
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  #4  
Old 02-08-2007, 08:37 AM
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Gary Mulkey Gary Mulkey is offline
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I have used AcraGlas for years with excellant results. If you followed the past thread on adhesives then you are aware of the importance of getting both surfaces clean. Also, this time of year another concern is making sure that the epoxy is warm. Using it cold severely impairs it's bonding ability.

Gary
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Old 02-08-2007, 09:12 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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2-Ton is good glue and there are even better epoxies around but the first thing you have to change here is your expectations of what any epoxy should do under a knife scale. We don't put epoxy under knife scales to hold the scales on, we put it there to block moisture out. The other guys are exactly right about how preparation of the surfaces is THE most important thing when it comes to making the epoxy hold tight but no epoxy will hold scales on a piece of steel without the help of pins or bolts (not that you were trying to do this).

I buy 2-ton by the case but I use it only on stick tang knives where I have to pour it into the handle. It's very good for this purpose. For scales, I use K&G's epoxy. This glue rated very high in the glue wars and I've used it for auto repairs, fixing cracked 2 hp water pumps, repairing gasoline hand pumps, patching my Paragon oven, plumbing repairs - this stuff is tough and it really holds! Still, don't be surprised if you are able to pop the scales off should you need to do another repair, just don't expect it to be quite as easy ....


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  #6  
Old 02-08-2007, 09:39 AM
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Mike Turner Mike Turner is offline
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I second Acragals, I really like it. I get mine from http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...&ps=10&si=True


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  #7  
Old 02-08-2007, 09:58 AM
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Remember that all adhesives go bad with age. Be careful about stocking up or buying when there's a big clearance sale. You could wind up with glue past it's prime.


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Old 02-08-2007, 10:50 AM
obe obe is offline
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Thanks gentlemen for the quick reply, I did not check the shelf life but Idid rough up both scales and tang and clean with acetone before applying. I was just surprised at how eay they came lose after pin removel I will however try the other mentioned products. Thanks again Obe
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  #9  
Old 02-08-2007, 12:26 PM
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tmickley tmickley is offline
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I threw away nearly $35 worth of unopened Devcon 2 ton epoxy after testing. I think it will work OK in a hidden tang, pinned knife. I would never use it on a full tang knife. Ever. Even with great surface preparation, it failed first and and quite early in every test.
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  #10  
Old 02-08-2007, 01:14 PM
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David Broadwell David Broadwell is offline
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Obe and others,

First of all, the epoxy you find at the grocery stores and hobby shops with names like Devcon and Duro is cheap junk. It's produced by packagers, not epoxy manufacturers. THere is a place for it, but that's usually not on the knives we make.

Buy your epoxy from a company that manufacturs it. I use System 3 and like it. S3 makes marine epoxy adhesives and coatings, and they know what they are doing. I have heard that West System is as good. Acraglas is considered by many to be the best. Everything from the 5 minute to the 2 ton that's in the bubble packs at Safeway aren't worth using.

Other things to know about epoxy. Generally speaking, the shorter the cure time the poorer the adhesion. Don't clamp your scales too tightly and squeeze out the epoxy. You need to leave a few thousandths of an inch of it to work. If your epoxy has thickened or looks like old honey that has crystalized, warm it in hot water until the crystals go back into suspension (just like you do with the old honey). The S3 rep told me to put it into my microwave oven. When I mix some for a knife I warm my epoxy with an old hair dryer (I haven't had to blow dry my hair in years!). This makes it easier to mix and spread on your parts, and it helps start the chemical reaction. It's especially important this time of the year when it's cold. You also don't want your parts cold either. Everything should be above 70 degrees, and a little over 100 is great. When you prep your scales and tangs, you should also wallow out both on the back side so there is plenty of epoxy under the scales. I learned about epoxy from Bob Hajovsky, "Bob-Sky", many years ago. Bob had a degee in chemistry, and specialized in epoxy. He ran the R&D chemistry lab at the fiberglass pipe plant where we both worked. Bob made a small oven to cure his epoxy from a cardboard box and a light bulb.

One last thing. Ray, I have to disagree with some of what you said. Epoxy, at least the good epoxy, is an adhesive that will hold most things together if properly prepared and cured. At the company Bob and I worked for in the 80s we made fiberglass pipe, and the cast or wound fittings were bonded to the pipe with epoxy only, no mechanical bond. Bolts will hold scales on a knife, but straight wire type pins add shear strength only. If all you need is a moisture barrier you could use rubber cement or some common household waterproof glue.

David
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  #11  
Old 02-08-2007, 01:43 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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David,

I respect your opinion on this subject and, all things being equal, would probably agree with you. But, I try to tailor my advice based on what I can imagine the 'average' person will do. Yes, I believe that surface preparation is important but no amount of preparation will guarantee adhesion if the steel flexes (as it might on some knives and not others). We don't know what handle material or which epoxy may be used by a maker at any given moment so, perhaps if he used an oily tropical wood, the same preparation that worked great last time would not suffice this time.

By suggestiong that we put the epoxy under the scales as a moisture barrier I am attempting to create a mind set that does not expect the epoxy to hold the scales. If it does, that's great, an added benefit, but most of the time I don't think it will for most makers and especially the Newbies.

I know what 2-ton is and I use it within its limitations, mostly because I can't get the thicker goo to go in the hole. It's one thing to use only epoxy to secure scales if you know what you're doing, as I believe you do, and quite another to simply hear that epoxy X can do the job when you may not understand the other variables that are involved. For me, epoxy under scales is a moisture barrier and that's all I'm willing to suggest that it could be to anyone who needs to ask the question.....


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  #12  
Old 02-08-2007, 05:02 PM
DaveL DaveL is offline
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I have used a lot, followed carefully the discussions on adhesive and still think the best for knifemaking is Loctite 330 Depend. Great stuff, used by many makers.
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  #13  
Old 02-08-2007, 06:43 PM
EdStreet EdStreet is offline
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there's a reason that jb weld, devcon and others failed. Also a a good reason why I bought locktite E-120HP and 324 speedbonder.

Ed


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  #14  
Old 02-10-2007, 11:00 AM
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David Broadwell David Broadwell is offline
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Ray,

I don't recall the last time I used Devcon 2-Ton epoxy, so I don't remember its characteristics. I've used System 3 for years. The S3 can be rather thick, especially this time of the year, so I use the hair drier to warm it up. It thins the epoxy and allows it to flow better. Most of my fixed blade knives are of hidden tang construction and if the epoxy were too thick it wouldn't run down inside very well. Shoving the tang in the hole helps push the adhesive where it belongs. Whatever brand of epoxy you use I recommend warming it. I even warm 5 minute epoxy a bit.

I think it's almost impossible to find a perfect epoxy for any given application. Snakewood is likely to move around more than ironwood, walnut or African blackwood. Elephant ivory is going to move around more than just about any wood. Mother of pearl and synthetics like Micarta don't move. I think it's best in just about any knife related case to use an epoxy that doesn't cure out hard, even on the knives with MOP and Micarta. It should have some flexibility. I've found the S3 to be less brittle than some others.

I mentioned 5 minute epoxy. Yeah, it's generally not very good for making knives. Goddard said he uses it when he's making a hidden tang knife with a screwed on butt. The epoxy in that case is just a filler while the butt (or, I would add, a finial) creates a mechanical setting to hold the handle on. I've made some knives without an adhesive so the knife can be taken apart. I do have a different use for 5 minute epoxy though. On some of my knives I need to be able to put the knife together and take it apart as I'm working on it. If I have a flat mating surface it's easy to do with a couple of dowel pins, but many of my knives have curved mating areas. To insure they parts fit together properly I wallow out the metal fitting and "key" it with shaped gouges, then smear on a light coat of petroleum jelly as a mold release. I then dab some of the epoxy on the face of the handle and assemble the knife. The epoxy fits into those keys and I can take it apart and put it together many times until I'm ready to do the final assembly.

Having said all that about 5 minute epoxy, the first custom order I took over 25 years ago was assembled with it. It was a tapered tand bird knife from 440c and ivory Micarta with red felt liners. It's cleaned a lot of birds and several deer and is still in good shape.

David
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Old 02-10-2007, 12:34 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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David,

Sounds like S3 is pretty thick stuff too. I have tried warming the K&G epoxy and it does get thinner but still won't pour. I haven't worried too much about it because the 2-ton is completely encased inside the stub tang handle (the only kind I use 2-ton for) so it cannot be affected by sunlight or water. Other than that, I wouldn't use it either but it does seem quite adequate for that.

I also have a use for 5 minute Devcon. I use it when a burl wood has a pin hole or small crevas that needs filling. Mixed with some saw dust the fast drying time is an asset for this type of minor repair. I don't feel too bad about it because it isn't structural and it's used in minute quantities.

Do you mean to say the knife you assembled with 5-minute had no pins or bolts? If so, that is as much a testament to your assembly skills as it is to the epoxy. Even if that is not what you meant, we both know that such things can be done with epoxy but there is much more to making it work reliably than just spreading glue on a flat surface - even a well prepared flat surface. I'm slow to suggest all that under cutting and keying to someone who is having trouble getting pins or bolts correctly fitted.

It would be an interesting addition to the glue wars to do some tests to see just how well the best epoxies will hold on various thicknesses of steel (the flex issue) when the scales are attached using 'epoxy bolt' technique.......


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