Explanation of steel types

[MSullivan]

In a google fueled effort to find a very simplified "guide" on different steel types, I came across this Wikipedia page that gives a decently clear breakdown of the numbering system. I figured I'd post it for any other newbies out there like me that don't have a good grasp of the classification system.

If any of you veterans out there have a good source of the subject to suggest I'd be open to hearing it. What I'm looking for is some kind of explanation that would teach me to identify steels easier by their number.

[Ray Rogers]

Too many different numbering systems out there. Some are very old, others relatively new. The very simple carbon steels like 1084 are easy: that means .84 percent carbon, 1095 is .95 percent carbon etc. But ATS-34 or 440C or other such names don't really mean anything for the most part. If a knife supply place sells it then it should be blade steel and the thing to do is get a copy of the manufacturers spec sheet for that steel to know what's in it and how to heat treat it. Anything else will likely be mostly guesswork ...

[Doug Lester]

Another problem with the older numbers like 1080, 1084, and 1095 is that they don't give enough information.
For one, the 1080 and 1084 that we find on the market is not the 1080 and 1084 that are mentioned in some of the older knife making books. The 1084 is most likely to be what is sometimes referred to as 1084+ in that it has chromium in it that was not found in the older alloy. The 1080 is also likely to be a souped up ally that should more properly be called 80CrV2 in that it has both chromium and vanadium added. With 1095 it is also important to pay attention to the manganese level which will effect hardenability. Then there are steels like W1 and W2 which actually tells little about the carbon content of any particular melt which can go from 0.6% up to 1.4% carbon.

Doug

[TexasJack]

The late Bob Engnath's descriptions are among the best: http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

[samuraistuart]

The difference between 1080 and 1084 is carbon content and sometimes Mn content. Neither have Cr in the formula. However, Aldo had a custom smelt done, as usual, on his 1084 which does indeed have a bit of Cr in it, also a touch of Si, and a sprinkle of V. It is not traditional 1084, but like Doug said, probably a 1084+. 1080 has generally slightly less carbon and less Mn than 1084.

1080+ is a whole different animal, with Cr and V added. Some variations of 1080+, called 80CrV2, have Nickel added to the Cr and V. There are a few variations of 80CrV2 out there. English and German, and they really are two different steels.

How about W1 and W2? The carbon content of those steels can be varied wildly! From eutectoid all the way up to 1.5%.

So even simply going by steel ID...you don't get the whole story. Best thing is to check actual chemistry....that way you know exactly what you're dealing with.

[MSullivan]

Thanks for all the replies guys. If the steel ID is useless as you all say and the chemistry makeup should be looked at instead, that raises another question from me

Do any of you know of a very beginner breakdown of all that chemistry? I hated chemistry in high school and that hasn't really changed

[Ray Rogers]

So much depends on what you plan to do with the steel. Right now, I would be concerned that you might be creating a problem where none exists. At some point in the future of your knife making you may find it useful to have all the info you are asking about but right now I can't see how it will be of any use to you. Heck, it's hardly any use to me either.

If you are a raw beginner (see, we don't know who you are or what you are trying to accomplish) out to make your first blades then the answer to your "what steel to use" question is simply use what the knife supply houses sell for blade stock. No need to worry about what it is made of, just follow the heat treat instructions that go with whatever steel you choose. Assuming you have minimal equipment then buy some 1084, 1080, or even 1095...whichever the supplier has in stock and follow basic carbon steel heat treating processes. If you need to send it out for heat treatment then 440c stainless is one of the cheaper and easier steels to get processed although it is possible to get carbon steels done too. At that point, no one cares what's in it ...

[samuraistuart]

Ray is right....the chemistry isn't too terribly important to know exactly what is what. Some steel nuts like myself get into it, but it isn't rocket science...thank goodness.

Most all the carbon steels indeed receive the same heat treatment, or a slight variation there of. 1080 and 1084 do not need soaks, but anything with more carbon, like 1095 on up, soaking becomes part of the hardening process, using time instead of temp to put additional carbon/alloy in solution.

If your interested on what element does what to steel, there are write ups all over the internet. ZKnives is a great sight to do steel research, if you're inclined.

[DanCom]

The best read I have found is:

Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths and Others who Heat Treat and Forge Steel
by Dr. John D. Verhoeven

This book is very informative and not so overwhelming for the novice.

Understanding what is happening in the steel makes knifemaking all that more interesting.

Dan

[MSullivan]

Ray,

I suppose I am a raw beginner but I do have my dad to bother with questions. He's been making knives for 20+ years. Right now I'm using 5160 and 1080 for no other reason than they're cheap and he suggested it. I started looking into steel ID's and the chemistry because I don't like to read something I don't understand and trying to puzzle through some of posts you guys have is difficult

[Ray Rogers]

Nothing wrong with those steels, good for beginners and more advanced makers too. Any of us would be happy to answer a specific question or elaborate on something you may read in a post especially on an active topic. As you have discovered, the chemistry of steel is a huge subject that goes far beyond what most of us know or need to know to do our jobs.

The simple truth of steel chemistry as far as knife making is concerned boils down to knowing the heat treat requirements of the steel you're using (which is best determined by the spec sheet for that steel) and how well you can adhere to it. Adhering generally means how well you can control the various temperatures involved and choosing the correct tempering medium. You might call that situation the 'ideal' and realize that most of us can only get close. Once you have learned to get as close as possible with the steel of choice then you can tweak the process to look for improvements which may happen because the steel might have alloying elements not usually found in that type of steel or have the expected elements but in slightly different amounts. This type of variance happens a lot these days because very little 'fresh' steel is being made to specific specifications. Most steel comes from re-melt of recycled cars and such which is then adjusted to create a desired type of steel. But, this process allows for small amounts of unneeded elements to ride along and that causes the variance from the 'ideal' when we try to heat treat it. That's why we should follow the specs first and then experiment afterwards if you want more performance from your blades.

That's the general idea and you can see that can be accomplished without an exhaustive understanding of the effects of every element in the steel which is why you might quickly come to the limit of what we can explain about the elements. Kudos to you for wanting to understand more about it, in a few years you may well be the one to whom we turn for those answers ...