Higher layer count patterns?

[Dan Graves]

Ed, sinsce I started this thread I have made about 5 billets of raindrop and understand what you meant about depth and waiste. Someone said that steel is one of the cheapest parts of damascus making. Thats a good thing. I understand how you forge the blade to shape thick and then do the pattern. That is an experience thing as you have to know just the right thickness to pull that off. At least in my experience. The one thing I have learned is there are no shortcuts. Ed, thanks for all your help in my learning process. I posted a blade in the display case called "A simple Bowie". I could not have made it without your help. Thanks, Thanks, Thanks!

[Bowi]

I find that they are as many way to develop patterned welded steel as they are those doing it.
It seams that after doing it a while each become comfortable in the way they do it.
after they have adopted a method they --it seams is .with more success than failure they believe that they have found the secret and tend to stop developing new way and new patterns . not so good -- its interesting to read the different ways to play with this medium we tend to dabble in - of which I think we are stile playing what our ancestors have thought us.
.They need more credit than most will afford them .
I to disagree with a lot of thing and some I know, know not what they are speaking about.
That?s ok nothing wrong with that concept a long as we will stop long enough to consider what they may think .but if and when they are posting just to post I being human tend to over look them .
Ideas are untried methods in the making.
Its good to express your ideas with a group of people that have a few methods under their belt and its good to try new way to get to a patterned .
I myself-- laugh-- and cry ?find it very interesting that most will want to ask rather than try and in the asking resolve to what has been told them ( scary ). some things that are said on this subject but if i take the time to read i also have learned that they may be saying something i myself have not had the time to try or consider .but being human i have found that i have over looked what was said im not the sharpest knife in the rack but i am a long time student of this stuff we think we are pushing the limits ---not even close .
They are good reasons for high layer counts other than high proformance --and high layer counts stretch out become low layer looking due to the plan we grind all is not what it seams
as for carbon migration I think is a good thing --as for alloy migration --with what we do it don`t happen it would take a melt to make that shift but im only being human teach me im wrong
some tips I would like to pass on if you think it will work --try it more than a few time .
don`t let every body hold your steering wheel drive this to your limits and study
learn from the best and listen to the least they all have a input and they may just stumble on the best thing seance 1600ereds

[movingarrow]

I have to disagree. It doesn't take 30,000+ layers to create a high performance pattern welded blade...all it takes it knowing what your doing. Using alloys that have similar coefficients, forging, thermal cycling, and heat treating them properly will enable a blade of 300 layers to do anything that a 30,000 layer blade will do. The forge welding must be flawless in each to produce a "high performance" blade, but aside from that it's all about time, temp, and technique.

Mr. Caffrey,

With all due respect, I am not too sure about the validity of your claim. Yes, I have to say that your view is shared by many experts in the field. What I can say is that it contradicts with the blades that we make. I am a firm believer of seeing is believing. Whenever I cut through a section of bamboo or rolled-up straw mat, I have distinctive feeling through my hand (s) about which blade is superior between the two. In the past, many informal tests had been done in Asia and I am sure some were done here too. I, for one would be more than happy to see if your assertion is positively confirmed.

and when it comes to pattern welded blades (those blades that are actually created through welding multiple layers of differing materials) most Bladesmiths agree that once a billet surpasses the 500 to 1,000 layer point you usually wind up with "homogenized" steel. (a mass of steel that has the mid-range alloy contents of the parent materials due to alloy migration...most commonly carbon). Of course there are ways around everything, but few are willing to go to the lengths necessary to achieve the "work around" with every blade they produce.

Can you explain what ?homogenized steel? means in terms of its quality, be more specific please?

Now, if your dealing with the Asian methodology of creating blades from second generation melt irons, then your dealing with a totally different animal. You simply cannot call the Asian methodology "pattern welded" steel. Lumping the Asian made blades into American style "damascus" is like comparing apples and oranges. The patterns, and the high layer counts represented in the Asian blades are there for a totally different reason, and is more a necessity of the methodology than for any other reason. Each has it's own distinct advantages and disadvantages (Asian style versus American style)

I have to agree with you though that ?the Asian blades were there for the different reason? to certain degree, because here the US has different set of standards on how a good blade is judged, either its quality or its esthetics. However, to say that Asian blades are made this way is ?out of necessity of methodology? is IMHO erroneous assumption. Japanese military soldiers were initially been equipped with German-made swords in the 19th century. After the war between the Russian and Japanese, Japan found out that her home-made old blade worked a lot tougher on the battleground than the German-made. Many swords were replaced with old blades as a result.

A five-pound modern steel will eventually be folded into two pound billet, when the steel gets to 45,000 layers. The folding itself definitely changes the quality of any steel, modern steel or old iron. I have provided the videos for you to see and if you are not interested in looking into it, I would assume no amount of words would convince you otherwise. I strongly recommend you have some one check us out at the knife show or I can swing by your place with the blades as I am on my way back to Montana. It is just my 2 cents. Humbly yours.

[Woodchuck Forge]

The Question is what is considered "High Performance". I have been reading for years about how many cuts thu a piece of rope a knife has made etc.etc.etc. I found the article I had mentioned in my last post. It is in knives 1985 page 123 "The Study of Sharp ,II." THe knives , made by George Herron, were damascus, it did not state the coposition. 4 blades were made one of 112 layer, one of 224, one of 448 and one of 1060. They appear to be about 6 inches long, though not specified in the article. The author performed cutting tests beginning with the 112 layer blade. He went into the test with the belief the lower layer count would not perform as well. He made 900 cuts thru a 3/4 inch manila rope. After freshening the blade he then cut thru a 2x6 at a 45 degree angle 15 times and the blade still shaved. He then cut thru a walnut board 6 times and still shaved. He repeated with the higher layer count blades with the same results. Then he cut 5 - 20 inch long ribbons of aluminum flashing with each and no problems....... Here again I ask what is considered a "High Performance" blade????? If this is not in that class then I would like to see the one that is. The lower layer count of 112 performed just as well as the higher layer count, up to 1060 layers. So what does 30000 layers get you??? In the reading I have done the Japanese smiths fold until the steel is clean and folds smoothly. This may mean 30000 layers it may mean far less or much much more. I do not have the experience of using a fine Japanese sword but I have handled a couple. THese are old blades that have been well used. Looking at the pattern in the blade there is no way these are in the 30000 layer count. I know of a maker who made a billet of 1,000,000 layers. What was the point I asked him. That's what the customer wanted, and he just had to try, was the reply. Bottom line for me is what is practicle. Over 600 layers you begin to lose definition. If the blades are forged properly and I can get the performance out of my knives that were obtained my the article I will be perfectly happy as will my customers. So mixing beauty and performance is what I am after.

Chuck Richards

[Woodchuck Forge]

Originally Posted by movingarrow

Mr. Caffrey,
I have provided the videos for you to see and if you are not interested in looking into it, I would assume no amount of words would convince you otherwise. I strongly recommend you have some one check us out at the knife show or I can swing by your place with the blades as I am on my way back to Montana. It is just my 2 cents. Humbly yours.

Norman
I have been looking for the videos you provided. I am definitley intersted in seeing these. If you ever come thru the true northern part of california I would be happy to hve you drop by with your blades.

Chuck Richards

[Ed Caffrey]

Hi Norman,

I ask this question again... are you actually the one producing these blades, or are you just representing/using them? This is a very important question because unless you are actually the one forging the steel, I'm not sure we'll have a common frame of reference/understanding. I've made several traditional Japanese style blades, in the traditional method, which is what I was referring to when comparing American and Japanese styles. Simply and plainly, you cannot make MODERN steel "better" by simply folding it, no matter how many times you do it. There are just too many other factors to consider, mainly the technique, and especially the thermal treatments being conducted.

After reading your last post, I feel we might be talking about two different things. Is the steel in these blades a single steel that is being folded many times, or are there two or more types of steel in the billets?

You asked what "Homoginized" steel is... This is a term many of us use to describe what happens when carbon migrates during forge welding. For example, if you were to start a billet with a steel containing 1% carbon, and a steel containing .10% carbon. Depending on the individuals smith's techniques and skills, there IS going to be carbon migration (the carbon will seek to equalize itself throughout the mass of the entire billet) during the forge welding process, higher heats and longer durations at high heats increase the migration. After enough forge welding cycles the carbon will be equalized throughout the mass of the billet. In other words the carbon content throughout the piece of steel would wind up being about midway between the two materials you started with. In the example above, it's likely that you would wind up with an overall carbon content of .40-.60%. Basically the two steels you started with are no longer present, they have combined to a steel which contains a mid-range carbon content between the two.
There are various things that can be done by the Bladesmith to minimize the carbon migration, but there is no evidence of that in the photos you posted.

In your last post you said it yourself.... "A five-pound modern steel will eventually be folded into two pound billet". Where do you think that other 3 pounds of steel goes? It is turning into scale that winds up on the floor of the shop. The material that is being lost is being consumed via the forging process, along with doing much damage to the matrix of the material due to the high heats and long durations. That means the steel is literally being burned away. Loosing three pounds in the forging process is tremendous loss of material, and that alone is an indication to me that the steel is being over forged.

I can't help but still think that we are talking about two differnt things.... I'm thinking of the traditional Japanese methods of creating steel from a smelt, where as I think your talking about using modern steels.....which is it?

I certainly don't know it all, but my experience and instincts tell there is more to this than what your saying...and I would be interested in hearing more of an explaination at Blade. I'll try to make it over to your table, time permitting.