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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #1  
Old 02-10-2007, 03:16 PM
EdStreet EdStreet is offline
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forge materials?

OK I was out today and picked up 2 things. one is a 10" 306SS 36" pipe. The other is a 8" "dura-black" 12" "black pipe". I plan on making a forge out of them. Bought both of them from a chimney company here local. The Black pipe is 'stove pipe' and the stainless is chimney but it is *NOT* insulated, they had the insulated as well but only to 2,100F.

The problems I do see so far is the "black pipe" is galvanized. Doesn't that mean it's zinc coated and doesn't zinc produce some very nasty fatal fumes when heated?


Also bought me some aur-99 shade 2.0 safety goggles, they protect against IR *AND* UV. the company lists this:

Quote:
Maximum Visible Light Transmission: 38.6 %
Average (400 to 750 nm) Visible Light Transmission: 25.4 %
Average (751 to 2500 nm) IR Transmission: 9.8 %
ANSI Welding Shade: 2.0
Ed


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  #2  
Old 02-10-2007, 08:49 PM
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B.Finnigan B.Finnigan is offline
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If the black pipe is black then it is not galvanized. galvanizing is silver with a tortoise shell pattern. Which I am sure you have seen before.

Galvanizing is zinc or zinc alloy based and is toxic when heated and becomes zinc oxide. The toxicity gets exagerated on the forums more and more each year. Zinc oxide is that white goo you see on lifeguard's noses and we smear it on baby butts all the time.

You can soak it in vinegar or grind it off with a flap disk and angle grinder. wear a respirator. I have burned it off by starting fire outside and tossing the piece in it for a few hours. Zinc melts at 787 deg F so a good clean burning fire will be much hotter then that.

Keep in mind that bronze and brass have zinc in them and people cast those metals all of the time without any problems.

Last edited by B.Finnigan; 02-10-2007 at 08:54 PM.
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  #3  
Old 02-10-2007, 10:12 PM
EdStreet EdStreet is offline
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there we go. The inside is kinda rusty and the outside is black, it was in a fireplace shop sold as "stove pipe" it connects to the back of the stove and to the chimney. I have seen these pipes get cherry red.

I put the inswool inside and lined it with the itc100 stuff. I actually forgot to cut the burner hole in first but it's a start. Now if rex will only email me telling me my t-rex is ready

Ed


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Gold is for the mistress - silver for the maid
Copper for the craftsman cunning in his trade.
"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall
But steel - cold steel is master of them all.
Rudyard Kipling (1865 - 1936)
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  #4  
Old 05-02-2010, 09:25 PM
Deerhunterbow Deerhunterbow is offline
 
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I have to agree with MR.Finnigan about the galvanized steel. It has gotten a worse rap as time goes on. I have been a structural welder for over 35 yrs. We welded galvanized steel without a thought of it punching your ticket . We did put fans on the welds to blow away the smoke. I have had galvanize poisoning several times in my life. All you have to do is get under some blankets & sweat it out. It shouldn't take you several hours to get over it. I compare it to the flue. If someone has died from it, they had underlying health problems to begin with. Once it is burned off there is no problem. Just stay upwind or put a fan on it while it burns off. I don't condone sticking your head in the smoke but it is not as bad as people make it out to be. Most of the people that talk it down have no experience with it. It keeps getting worse every year. If you have a choice of galvanized fittings or black, go with the black. But a little smoke is not going to kill you.
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  #5  
Old 05-02-2010, 11:36 PM
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B.Finnigan B.Finnigan is offline
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I have used it on every forge I have built and have melted and cast with nickle silver several times without even coughing. It's even on video.

Nobody bothers to look up the MSDS on it and read the data for themselves. They just keep parroting what others parrot until it's made out to be worse then plutonium.

I just welded a 2" galvanized pipe flange to a plate of steel the other day. The regular welding smoke is all I smelled. I'm fine, I knew I was going to be fine and I wanted as much of the galvanizing to stay on since they flange and steel plate will be outside.

I saw a picture of "Paw Paw" Williams a couple days before he burnt off the galvanizing. He had a bluish tint to his face. Cyanosis, inadequate blood oxygen. He was in end stage emphysema and a smokey campfire could have just as easily killed him.

And so it goes, it will continue to keep circulating the knife forums and become the mascot of evil and death.

Knife makers will screw around with propane combustion in enclosed containers inside a shop without a second thought. But will freak out that two inches of burner pipe might heat up and burn some zinc for a minute.

There is rarely a mention on the forums of CO poisoning from poor ventilation that has a far more deadly potential then a little puff of zinc smoke. And a few times when it has come up on a forum thread it gets hijacked by zinc fume hysteria.
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  #6  
Old 05-03-2010, 12:08 AM
Go4it Go4it is offline
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While I agree with the thought that galvanizing doesn't pose an immediate health threat, what you can't ignore is, that the poisoning while not fatal, can accumulate in your system, an make life quite miseralble. It should be avoided if possible.
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Old 05-03-2010, 08:30 AM
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B.Finnigan B.Finnigan is offline
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Have you personally observed this yourself? How many people that cast brass and bronze are dead from it?

Zinc fume fever runs rampant on the forums and the hysteria continues to grow.

What I find so completely ridiculous is the constant threats we face using insulwool and keeping it coated with refractory. Those ceramic fibers will accumulate in your lungs each time you use the forge if they are not sealed.

Nobody talks about the safety factor of using a mask or respirator while forging. You will end up with a silicosis type disease with enough exposure.

And we just read about Ed Caffrey's ordeal with the benign lobe that showed up on his lung. And the surgery and recovery from it. Thank goodness it was not malignant. Most likley caused by steel particulates from knife grinding.

How many forgers have a CO detector in their shop? My wife and I both got seriously ill from a bad kerosene heater we were using. CO poisoning is so very lethal yet it rarely gets a mention on the forums.

Those that do a lot of forge welding need to think about manganese toxity since most steels have it alloyed in. It will cause Parkinsons like symptoms and many commercial welders have had to deal with.

Yet I have not seen a single post ever on any forum about at least being aware of that.

But sure as S*&^ as soon as someone posts a question about forge building everyone just about wets themselves over the piping used. Nothing is going to happen to you when 2" of galvanizing burns off the first time you light your forge.

Let get real and keep the concerns in their relative threat level at least.

Stop propagating mass hysteria on the forums and stick to reality. If there is discussion about the dangers of knife making/forging lets include all of it. And stress the relative dangers.

Do your own homework on what you read anywhere if you are concerned.

Last edited by B.Finnigan; 05-03-2010 at 01:17 PM.
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  #8  
Old 06-09-2010, 10:53 AM
ta2edfreak ta2edfreak is offline
 
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Whether or not the zinc will or can cause cyanosis.. if your forge is insulated properly, then the heat should not get hot enough to burn off the coating, if it does, a lot of things in the vicinity of your forge will probably get warm as well. If you are concerned about it, as has been said in this thread, soak it in vinegar or flap wheel it off, or for the first couple of burns, stay upwind. I just finished my forge and it is black stove pipe as well, if it doesnt say galvanized, it probably isnt. Don't forget, wood stoves put out a lot of heat and you would think that this would affect the zinc as well right?

Aside from that, what are you lining it with? Kaowool or similar or are you using IRC?

Last edited by ta2edfreak; 06-09-2010 at 11:13 AM.
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  #9  
Old 06-12-2010, 09:44 AM
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Geno Geno is offline
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zinc poisoning

Just a note from an old welding engineer, if you get zinc poisoning, drink MILK before you wrap up to sweat it out. Milk will help neutralize it and flush it out quicker.
Just like cutting a potato for your flash burnt eyes.
Be safe.
Geno
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:03 PM
Larry Peterson Larry Peterson is offline
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If I may,

When I was a young buckaroo I worked in a Utah lead smelter. From time to time a worker would get too much lead fume ( get leaded). The cure was to drink lots of milk. The Company Doctor told us it clears the metal salts out of the blood and deposited it in the bones. The theory might have just ben a "pant load" but in my mind it worked. That was in 1962 and I ain't quite dead yet!

Thank you Geno and B. Finnagan. I get really bored listening to a hysterical warneng being tampted into my system. I know metal smoke and salts are harmfull and I appreciate real consirn. I'm still doing what I need to do to make the knives I make.

Best wishes, Larry Peterson
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  #11  
Old 06-08-2012, 02:44 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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I don't know about drinking milk to clear heavy metal salts from your body but I do know that when I worked for a clinic that provided occupational health services we had to pull more than one welder off the job and sent to the hospital to have heavy metal salts removed from their bodies. That probably represented a very small percentage of a the welders out there, even just the ones who ignored their respirators, but those men were not allowed to work until they had the problem cleared. For them it was a big deal.

Doug


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