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Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith.

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  #1  
Old 08-05-2008, 11:41 PM
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DiamondG Knives DiamondG Knives is offline
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CO2 Concerns

Hello all:
It looks like Ill be spending another winter in Wisconsin, so Ive decided to rent a house and move out of the travel trailer.

Im looking at an old farm house with a basement. Im wondering since it has no out buildings, if I could safely forge in the basement?

I know CO2 is my issue, as well as fire safety, but Im at a loss on what to expect. My smithy at home is outsdide, so its never been an issue.

Ed I notice your forge is inside and under a hood. Is it power vented, or just natural draft?

If I was to go the power vented idea, how much heat will the exhaust fan be exposed to?

Im open for any suggestions folks, just not going to do another winter alone up here without a forge!

On CO2 monitors, should they be mounted in the avg breathing zone height wise, or closer to the floor (co2 being heavier than O2)?

Again, any input is greatly appreciated. Also, any smiths in WI give me a shout!

God Bless
Mike


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Old 08-06-2008, 04:56 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Mike, CO2 is not your problem with a forge, just plain CO is, carbon monoxide. Any forge that you build is going to have to be vented directly to the outside. Another thing to consider with the idea of putting your forge inside a residence is if your renter's insurance will cover it if there is a fire. I'd hate to see you have to cover any fire losses out of your own pocket. I'm going to be moving back to Illinois next year and I'm thinking about locating my hot shop in an outbuilding separate from my house.

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Old 08-06-2008, 09:55 AM
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Even with power venting I doubt that arrangement would be safe. Why not consider building a temporary smithy? All you need is two sheets of plywood and some 2x4's to make a frame. That's basically how my smithy was built. Use it while you are there and then tear it down when you leave.....


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Old 08-06-2008, 11:20 AM
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Mike,

I know you know, people have been burning everything that will burn indoors forever. The thing that makes that possible without as serious case of death is that there is A LOT more air going out than the air supply coming into the fire. This presents a couple of problems.

The fire will consume the oxygen inside your house and turn it into carbon dioxide as Doug said. So the trick will be exhausting, since you can't forge with any fuel source unless the oxygen supply is accelerated, at least a little. The safest thing, besides outside as the guys said, is to have exhausting that is at least 2X the CFM of the highest potential CFM of forced and passive air input. 3X or 4X would be a lot safer.

And we're not just talking about the blower or compressed air used to accelerate the fuel. You have to include the air that the open portion of the forge draws in which increases as the burn rate of the fuel is accelerate....crap this stuff is getting complicated. Just figure what you think it will be and then exhaust 4 times that amount. You can't do too much, just too little.

I would recommend bringing that air in from outside and venting it directly out as Doug suggested. At least 8' apart to avoid pumping poison gas right back into your house.

Oh, and the best I remember...carbon dioxide and 5 or 6 other toxins the forge will produce are lighter than air. Any sensors you install should be mounted high in the rooms. And since you'll be forging in the basement you should put them upstairs along with the basement. The levels of gas could get dangerous upstairs and be just fine down there.

Hope this gives you some ideals Mike. Safe forging indoors MIGHT be possible if you are DANG careful about venting and keeping heat sources at least 6' away from flammables. But please be careful. We don't want to loose another blade smith. ;~)

chiger,
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:49 PM
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The hood I have isn't powered, however, even in the winter, I have a gable exhaust fan running, with a window open on the opposite end of the shop. DO NOT mess around with carbon monoxide! Forges produce A LOT of it, and without some kind of fresh air coming in, its a very dangerous situation to be in an enclosed area with a forge going.

Carbon Monoxide is only part of the hazard of forging indoors (unless EVERYTHING is fireproof). with the heat and hot steel, burning the whole place down would be a major concern for me. Remember that heat always travels up....and the most likely place to catch will be overhead where you least thing about.

If you feel you must forge indoors.....just be darn careful! My instincts tell me the best answer is just don't.


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Old 08-06-2008, 03:48 PM
brucegodlesky brucegodlesky is offline
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Mike, if you know anyone with a resturaunt, check out their hood over the stove/oven. Most places nowadays have make-up air. This brings in a fresh air supply from outside and pulls the hot air out. Talk to a HVAC guy and he should give you some ideas on downsizing a system. bruce


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Old 08-06-2008, 05:09 PM
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Thanks Guys.

My thoughts wer to have a powered vented hood, as well as a fan blowing in one window and out another across the room as Ed mentioned. All good food for thought. mabe outside would be best!

Thanks Again.

God Bless,
Mike


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Old 08-06-2008, 05:54 PM
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I'm glad you're considering outside. If you can't do it in a garage with the door cracked open, maybe you can set up a windbreak to keep a little heat around you that the forge gives off. Bring your long johns.

Take care, Craig
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Old 08-06-2008, 10:17 PM
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Glad to hear you're leaning toward that outside thing too Mike. It's probably the safest choice. As Mr. Caffery said. Carbon Monoxide is nothin' to fool with! Don't even mention sulfur dioxide and the rest. None of it will increase your health.

Besides, it's Wisconsin. Just build a lean too and by October it should have 3 feet of snow on it for insulation. It'll be like forging in an igloo. ;~)

chiger,
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Old 08-17-2008, 12:39 AM
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Gene Chapman Gene Chapman is offline
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CO detector

I use a CO detector, Nighthawk, with a digital readout, about 40 plus $ from Home Depot a few years ago, The only time it went off when a gas powered pressure washer was used outside the shop and fumes were sucked in through the door, it also triggered a different CO detector in a furnace room adjacent to the shop.

Cheap insurance CO detectors.

I hate to think of all the blacksmith workshops that used gas forges without CO detectors, especially forced air forges.

Now that I am on a safty rant, how about those yellow/white borax fumes coming off a damascus billet.


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  #11  
Old 08-18-2008, 05:22 PM
Joe A. Gibson Joe A. Gibson is offline
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Wow, what great food for thought. I am going to get one of the CO detectors even though I don't forge inside and only use a small torch for solder nickle silver on spurs and brazing four little spots. My gas forge is outside under a shed. Of course, Texas winters are pretty mild, but I did forge one Christmas in about 20 degrees with snow on the ground. I was coming out of my sweat shirt and heavy shirt in just a few minutes. From what every one is saying I would not take the risk. Just do finish work inthe basement. Good luck.
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