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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 07-07-2014, 03:40 PM
Kevster Kevster is offline
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I'm looking at splurging on a paragon oven..

So, I need help picking out the right one.

I'm a small time maker, but wanna make sure I get more than I need, just in case. Most of the knives I make are 9" or under but i will also be doing some kitchen blades. I want a 240 unit since my shop already has it.

What unit should I buy, I'm going to buy new because I'll have a warranty.

Also where is the best place to buy?
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  #2  
Old 07-07-2014, 03:45 PM
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I bought my KM24 direct from Paragon. They make several 'Knife Maker' models, one of those should probably be your target. The only real difference in them is the length...


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Old 07-07-2014, 03:53 PM
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ATalley ATalley is offline
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Hi Kev, I would love to buy one as well (It's on my list!) I think the 9D, 10D, 12D and 14D models are all 120v. The 18D is the smallest the comes wired for 240. I found a lot of info on paragonweb.com there are really nice charts explaining all the models.

There isn't much of a price difference between the 12key and the 3 key controllers. I'm leaning towards the 12 key.

There are several websites that offer better prices than the factory site, I just did a google search and started looking around.


Good Luck Sir, can't wait to hear what you decide!!!


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Old 07-07-2014, 04:00 PM
Kevster Kevster is offline
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I talked to USA knifemakers today and they have a ht 14 that is 13w, 13 1/2 d x 8 8 3/4 t in 240 at $1228, the great thing is no tax, and they are made in Mesquite Tx, about 20 miles from me. I'm just wondering if I should go bigger and if so, why?
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  #5  
Old 07-07-2014, 04:24 PM
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my 2 cents is......if you can buy (afford) the bigger one..do it !!!
my only regret........
in this case bigger is better !! I said the same thing about only making 9-10-12 inch knives......

good luck either way a great investment you'll have paid back (heat treating cost) in no time

Rob


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  #6  
Old 07-07-2014, 04:29 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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The HT series of ovens are general purpose heat treating ovens, that's not what you want. The KM series are the ovens you want for knife making. The KM ovens reach higher temps and their internal shapes are sized specifically for knives rather than widgets of any size and shape and this fact makes the KM more efficient for knife making.

I haven't checked other sources but Paragon's base prices are higher on the HT ovens than on the KM ovens.

Finally, you said you wanted 220V (that's my preference too) and the KM24 is the smallest they make in the KM series that uses 220V. On Paragon's price list the KM24 is almost exactly the same price as that HT14 you are looking at. It never hurts to have the extra depth, you never know when you might need it. An ordinary 10" chef's knife with a 5" full tang handle is 15" long, a 12" chef is even longer. You don't have to make swords or giant bowies to find out a 14" interior is too small .

The KM series is available with argon metering (like the one I have). This makes it possible to avoid using foil wrap on your blades. It isn't perfect but it works for me. Also, you want a programmable ramping controller. I don't think the KM's come any other way but if you come across an option for more than one controller you want the ramping version ....


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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 07-07-2014 at 04:32 PM.
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  #7  
Old 07-07-2014, 04:44 PM
Kevster Kevster is offline
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Thanks Ray, I'll look at the 24"
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Old 07-07-2014, 04:50 PM
Kevster Kevster is offline
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Also, how long does it take to come up to temp?
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Old 07-07-2014, 05:11 PM
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It takes as long as it takes but that usually isn't long. Depends on the rating of the heating coil your using and the temperature in question. My oven will reach 1000 F pretty quick, then moves slower after that.

If memory serves, I can HT 440C at 1850F with a 15 or 20 minute soak in one hour and 5 minutes starting from cold. As best I can recall, none of the ordinary steels I use (1084, O1, S30V, 440C) take more than 90 minutes from a cold start. It really doesn't matter too much since you don't have to stand there waiting on it. But, I use fast coils, 16 OHMs I believe. They heat very fast but burn out sooner than the 32 OHM coils which last forever but take much, much longer to get the job done ...


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Old 07-07-2014, 05:27 PM
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Fulmaduro Fulmaduro is offline
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Kevster, I too have a Paragon on my short list of items I want to get.

After I did my research I decided I wanted to get the KM24 and the fancy controller. I have settled for less on other things in life, like a few cars with no AC or stereo and cheap scopes on nice rifles. I figure in the end you will pay more if you don't get everything up front. 99% of the time I want to upgrade something.

As far as the 24" vs 18" vs 14", etc., I just know I am going to make a 10"+ full tang Chef knife someday, and also some big Bowies, with tangs over 15"+ also. I have had to bring a big Bowie to critical in a forge that was 14" and it can be aggravating and tiring on the shoulder joints.

The Paragon seems to be the better quality oven out there, and I sure like that swing down weighted door for ease of use. And the 220V supposedly gets the oven to temp much faster than a 110V oven. And the argon capability, and the computer input device if you are truly bored or have extra cash to blow. Let us know what you decide!

Tony Z
Kansas City, MO


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  #11  
Old 07-07-2014, 06:23 PM
Kevster Kevster is offline
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I sold a Martin guitar I bought in 2010, I thought I would be the next garth brooks, well, that didn't pan out! Lol. So I sold it! The guy is picking it up tomorrow and I'm using some of the cash on a oven.
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Old 07-08-2014, 05:18 AM
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Thanks Ray for posting some rough times for heating. I made my own furnace last year and was wondering if waiting for 2 hours plus to reach 1060?C (1940?F) was pointing to an issue with my design. Until now, I have not been able to get an idea of what the temperature curves should be.

When Ray is talking about using 16 ohm instead of 32 ohm elements, he is talking about effectively doubling the Watts in the same volume.

Of course there are other factors involved, so what we really need is manufacturers to publish unloaded temperature curves so we could compare models. A large volume, lower powered furnace may cost you more over time as electricity is money and longer time is more money e.g. kilowatt hours.

IMHO go with the highest Watts/cu.ft. that will fit the knives you plan to make. That may be 120V or 240V supply.

Cheers!

Dan


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  #13  
Old 07-08-2014, 12:12 PM
Kevster Kevster is offline
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I just got off the phone with paragon and have another question.

If I buy one with the gas setup what size bottle of gas do I need to get, paragon said they don't sell the gas or the regulators.

Also how much faster is the 32 element over the 16? What size breaker would I need to run the oven?
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  #14  
Old 07-08-2014, 01:02 PM
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You get argon at any place that sells welding gasses. Most of those places also sell oxygen bottles for medical use at home and they usually have liquid nitrogen as well. You can rent the bottles or buy them from the same places. Get any size you like. I have a pair of 164 cf bottles and one of them could last me a year but that will vary with how often you use it of course. But, I live a long way from the supplier so having larger bottles makes sense for me. Check your phone book for OxArc.

A 32 ohm isn't faster that 16, the 16 is faster...much, much faster. But, the 16 burns out more easily. I can usually go for a year, sometimes two years on one coil. But, a little dirt in the wrong place or an accidental bump and I have had to replace them 3 times in one year and they ain't cheap. You could very easily spend a few hundred dollars replacing heating coils in your first year or two until you learn how NOT to screw them up.

Read the instructions that come with the oven before you heat it up or be prepared to replace the coil within the first week or so. Put the oven where you want it and then vacuum the dust out of it as completely as you can. Check the inside for loose chips of brick. Make sure the coils are well seated in their grooves and pin them in place if any part looks like it might be able to pop out because the coil will flex and twist like a snake the first time or two you heat it up. When it moves it scrapes dust off the brick. If the dust sets on the coil it can cause the coil to burn through at that location. If that happens there will be a sizable black tar/scale spot in the brick at that location which you will need to scrape out of there before you put in the new coil. You will need to have some of Paragon's inconel clips on hand to pin broken brick back together and to hold the coil in place. Some castable cement or Satanite for patching will also be useful. Don't attempt to move the coil after it has been heated over 1000 F.

Its like anything else, you just have to learn how to deal with it. The convenience of doing your own HT, the precise control, and the ability to process steels that can't be done in a forge are well worth the effort. These are the things that separate real knife makers from hobbyists ....


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  #15  
Old 07-08-2014, 03:22 PM
Kevster Kevster is offline
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Thanks Ray, you are very helpful. How much room do I need around the oven? I have tight quarters in my garage. How much heat does it put out with the door closed?
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