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  #1  
Old 02-12-2004, 10:07 PM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Question for Collectors......your thoughts on "blue" knives?

With the recent article in Blade concerning the bluing of knives, and much discussion with other makers, I'm interested to hear the opinions of collectors. There is certainly a split opinion amoung knifemakers about bluing blades, whether it be heat bluing, or "salts" bluing.

My direct question to the collectors is this: Is it of any concern to you that a blade may, or may not have reduced cutting qualities due to being hot blued, or "salts" blued?

I have conducted my own in shop tests to determine just how much the heat level of bluing effects performance, but I will save that until I hear what you have to say.


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Old 02-12-2004, 10:13 PM
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Ed,

What advantage does "bluing" add to a knife?

Alex


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  #3  
Old 02-13-2004, 12:27 AM
Phantom23 Phantom23 is offline
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Certainly to me a knife is an edged tool that I want to perform as best it can.

For most uses it really doesn't matter if it is bright and shiny with a purple and yellow handle (other than personal taste).

Then for hunting (maybe) or military (more so) uses it may start to depend, which is why I stopped carrying an Aitor (full tang which was highly polished) and bought a K-bar. But is was on my webbing, the swiss army knife I carried in my pocket was a red handled one.

However the Buck Bayonet/Fighting Knife we were issued for the Austeyr's was not blued/blacked. And I never saw anyone first because of their Buck.

I think it is a matter of taste and "belief" Ed.

Shine, Shape, Shadow, Spacing, Silouette, I am sure there is another S one there and Movement are why things are seen.

Certainly if it was going to effect performance in 99% of cases I would not bother.

The K-Bars were parkerised??? What is that exactly? Does that have an effect?

More questions than answers with me as usual- sorry


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  #4  
Old 02-13-2004, 07:23 AM
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Alex,

The only "advantage" bluing supplies is to add "Wow factor" to a knife. Basically that's what I'm asking....... How much does the "Wow" factor weigh into a knife for the average collector?
I'll let the cat out of the bag by saying that on damascus of 1084/15N20 the hot bluing salts process reduces a blades cutting ability by about 10%. My real interest is whether or not most collectors have an opinion on this, or is that circumstance out weighed by the added "Wow Factor"? To date I have avoided bluing blades, but recently have received several requests from collectors for it.........so, in the future it may very well show up on some of my higher end pieces.

Phantom....... Parkerizing is nothing more than a phosphate coating, used to dull a blades finish. It is a chemical process with minimal and sometimes no application of heat, so it has zero effect on the steel's performance characteristics.


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Old 02-13-2004, 07:44 AM
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Hi Ed,

I'd say it depends on the knife in question. On a fancy damascus gent's folder (such as the one pictured below by Wade Colter - bladegalery.com photo) bluing can add an undeniable "wow" factor and really enhance the beauty of the piece.



To my mind, a 10% decrease in cutting ability would be of little consequence given that this type of knife, if it saw any use at all, would be very light duty indeed.

If we're talking about a big forged bowie or camp knife however, I'd be far more reluctant to accept a quantifiable decrease in performance for the sake of aesthetics - even if I didn't plan to use the knife. Reason being that these knives are designed to be capable of heavy use and blademsiths put all of their knowledge of metallurgy and craftsmanship into extracting the nth degree of cutting performance and durability of such blades. It would strike me as incongruous to knowingly build in diminished performance for such a knife. Plus I think that bluing can frankly be a bit "much" on a big blade. But that's just me.

Cheers,

Roger
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Old 02-13-2004, 07:54 AM
Tactical Man Tactical Man is offline
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I think it is an individual decision. Most of the blued knives I have seen are not knives that will be used so the decrease in cutting ability should not matter.

I personally am not wowed by a blued knife. Different wow factors for different folks. If I were a maker I would explain the decrease in cutting ability with a customer so they could make the choice.

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  #7  
Old 02-13-2004, 09:35 AM
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On certain knives it looks ok. I like it more on fittings than on the blade.

I got a nice damascus knife from John Fitch and he had gun (salts) blued the blade. It was so dark that I could hardly make out a pattern. I didn't care for it at all and I removed the gun blue. There was a beautiful blade hiding beneath the finish.

Gun bluing does have an advantage. It protects a blade from rusting and corrosion. Nitre (heat) bluing does not do this and is just for the wow factor. The advantage of nitre bluing is that you get a greater choice of what tint of blue you can have.

I am having a knife made by Ron Newton. I want the fittings to have a gun metal grey look to them. This can be done with nitre bluing, it can not be done with gun blue.

So, back to the question being asked by Ed. It doesn't bother me that a knife's cutting ability may be affected by bluing. I would only consider this finish on collector knives that I never planned on using anyhow. However, personally I don't care for the look of blued blades and would not choose to have this finish done. As far as fittings go, that is a different story altogether.


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  #8  
Old 02-13-2004, 01:11 PM
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Now that's the kind of responses that I was looking for! Honest answers from the folks who purchase knives. I have been reluctant to utilize much bluing, simply because I've always prided myself on the cutting ability of the blades I produce. From what I'm reading, it appears that I might need to reassess my thinking in regards to my high end folder and art knives. Thank you gentlemen! Now to dream up some really wild patterns for the next high end folder!


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Old 02-13-2004, 01:21 PM
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What Roger said. What Keith said. I couldn't add more meaningful comments.

I have only one knife with a blued blade. It's a damascus art knife by Bertie Reitveld. Stunning bluing over a subtle damascus pattern. I like it BECAUSE you have to search for the pattern. This knife will never even open a letter while I own it, so it's relative.

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Old 02-13-2004, 08:36 PM
Phantom23 Phantom23 is offline
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Thanks Ed for the parkerizing explanation.

I went off on a tangent there.

I just think knife blades are "silver" rifles are "black".

Phantom23
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  #11  
Old 02-13-2004, 09:31 PM
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This is an interesting thread, I was wondering how hot these bluing treatments are?...... Although I know of these, I am not familiar with the process. What about cold blueing? I've used that on a couple of blades and it looked great. What, if any is the advantage of hot vs. cold?
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  #12  
Old 02-13-2004, 11:13 PM
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Cold bluing will give you a basic blue/black look, whereas heat "coloring" and hot bluing such as Nitre Blue "salts" will give you the ability to produce a wider range of very brilliant colors. The depth and brightness of these colors is mainly determined by the quality of the finish prior to the coloring process. Very finely finished steel will be very vibrant when colored, whereas satin or matte finishes (such as bead blasting) will give you more of a pastel tone.


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Old 02-14-2004, 12:00 AM
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Ed, So the only advantage is ascetics? Let me ask you this, most of the guys using this nitra blue and stuff are using it on high end folders, right? How many people that buy these use them like you would an EDC knife? Not many I bet. I wouldn't. It wouldn't bother me if there was a lack in performance in a knife that looked great and wouldn't be used, but I WOULD want to know about it. By the way.... how do you go about figuring out a 10% reduction in performance? I want to know how to do that.:cool: Now I don't collect high end knives......the knives I collect you would be luckyif there was any blueing to begin with, so this is just my 2 cents worth. I am interested in what this thread will turn into because I'm starting to get into doing more blade finishes in my own knives.

On a side note: I wanted to say THANK'S!! Your "how to" tutorial on passing the JS bend test was great and it helped me pass the test!
Thanks Ed.
Mace


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  #14  
Old 02-14-2004, 10:55 AM
J.R. Fraps J.R. Fraps is offline
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First THANK-YOU to Ed for bringing up this topic.
I collect, as well as make, knives. Love the looks of blued Damascus blades and/or bolsters, with the range of different colors from gold to purple to deep blue to silver blue, to yellowish gold....similar to the ranges of colors you can obtain when anodizing or heat coloring Titanium.
The different temps.:
I f you are using bluing salts like Brownells Oxynate 7 on non-stainless, just under 300 degrees F.
If you are using bluing salts like Brownells Oxynate 84 on stainless damascus, 240-270 degrees F is the range and I have beenable to achieve gunblue color or the dark gray to blackish tones only with this process.
If you are using something like Brownells NitreBlue salts, on non-stainless, the best operating range, to obtain the blue colors, per the technical specs is 600-650 degrees F. I haven't actually used nitreblue yet but it gives you some of the brightest blue bluing that I really like a lot.
There is a series of steps and number of processes to properly bluing knife steels (or guns) and outside is the best location to do this work...so read the instructions carefully and follow them and you should be fine... ED for you in God's Country (MT), like those of us in Indiana, this is a process that is best done in Spring thru Autum,
If you use heat coloring....forge, heat treat type oven, torch (I like propane rather than the hotter Mapp, Mapp/Oxygen, or Oxy/Acetylene, can be used to color non-stainless Damascus to any of the colors you can anodize Titanium.
Thank-You,


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  #15  
Old 02-14-2004, 12:01 PM
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Mace,
The cutting ability determination is a simply matter. Using two blades of the same material, heat treat, and grind.. one without bluing, and one with, I cut the same type material (in this case 1/2" hemp rope) until the blade can no longer cut under 30lbs of pressure. Count up the cuts made by each blade and do the math............wham! you have the percentage of difference. It may not be lab control environment, but it serves me well, and has been accurate for many years.

John......
Another Hoosier!!! I grew up in southern Indiana......Crawford County, in a little town right on the Ohio river! Small world! In fact, my Dad, Mom, and brother live in Clarksville. Dad retires from the Post Office in March, and they have already purchased a home here in Great Falls. I'm looking forward to movng them here.
Most of us "out west" use the Nitre Blue, because it is so easy to handle.....you never have to do any mixing (adding water or salts), and it does not "creep" like the other bluing solutions. At room temp it's a solid mass. It melts at about 300F, and has a working range to 900F. The other good thing about it, is that it can pull double duty as the low temp portion of a salt heat treatment set up.


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