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  #1  
Old 12-03-2016, 02:22 PM
Toni Toni is offline
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Forging and Annealing

I have gotten the impression that annealing is a pretty precise process to maintain slow enough cooling rate. However I see a lot of old master just saying to heat the steel red hot and dunk it into a barrel ash, or something equally imprecise. How come?

Also, from what I have understood, wouldn't annealing just remove any benefits forging brings to the grain structure of the steel?
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Old 12-03-2016, 02:39 PM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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Just because something is low-tech, doesn't mean that it is necessarily imprecise.
Bringing steel to forging temps and suspending it in ash, vermiculite, pearlite, or other such substances simply works. I always have some heated scrap bars in with it to maintain temps and slow the cooling rate.

The forging question is out of my area of knowledge, but normalizing reduces stresses built up by forging. Annealing would seem to do the same thing to a greater degree. That's an educated guess.


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Old 12-03-2016, 08:20 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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First of all forging does not add any benefits to the grain structure of the steel. Any stretching of the bonds between the iron atoms is removed at the next heating. I think that this belief comes from the myth of edge packing in steel blades.

Second I don't recommend annealing, except for sub-critical annealing. Critical annealing, like heat to read and stick in a bucket of ashes, can cause carbide growth which can interfere with drilling and sharpening.

Doug


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Old 12-04-2016, 05:30 AM
Toni Toni is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lester View Post
I think that this belief comes from the myth of edge packing in steel blades.
Doug
Edge packing is a myth? Why? Feels kinda strange since I've been taught to do it and it's mentioned in some pretty decent looking books as well. Please teach me more about this.
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Old 12-04-2016, 06:50 AM
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Hold on.....need to make a beer run!

(with you on this Doug, but always like to hear what the other side says)


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Old 12-04-2016, 08:06 AM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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Making popcorn...

Democrat vs. Republican...
Pepsi vs. Coke...
Religion vs. Science...

and Forging vs. anything but forging.


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Last edited by Andrew Garrett; 12-04-2016 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 12-04-2016, 08:42 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Toni,

Those decent looking books are very old, I've read some of them. If you can compress atoms with a hammer there are a few nuclear scientists who would like to speak with you, can't be done. If edge packing worked then just imagine how much improvement you'd see on an entire blade, not just the edge, if you used a 25 ton press instead of a hammer. But, no laboratory and no amount of field testing has ever shown any such improvement...


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Old 12-04-2016, 03:44 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Yes, you can deform the atomic bonds between iron atoms in the steel matrix by hammering on them. Just like you can harden the steel by bending it back and forth. However, when you heat the steel up again past the point where it changes phases new iron crystals form at the edge of the old crystals as the old crystals change phases. On top of that when you cool the steel to the point where it changes back to the "normal" phase the new crystal again reform on the edge of the old crystals as the old crystals get used up in the phase changes.

Way back when, edge packing may have been used on lower carbon steel blades by cold forging as the only way at least local bladesmiths used to harden the edge because they handn't learned the secret (and it was kept a secret by those who used it) of quench hardening. And I emphasize the word may.

Doug


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Old 12-04-2016, 06:42 PM
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I'm pretty sure there is a difference between re-arranging a crystal matrix in steel with a hammer - something which I think happens at the molecular level - and changing much of anything atomically. I bet Kevin Cashen could clear this up for us.

Maybe edge packing was just a way to pound some more carbon into the steel, a kind of case hardening. In any case, it seems to have been thoroughly discredited especially where modern steels are concerned....


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Old 12-09-2016, 05:02 PM
Toni Toni is offline
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http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=10273
Welp, managed to find this old thread about the subject while googling something else.
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