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Fit & Finish Fit and Finish = the difference in "good art" and "fine art." Join in, as we discuss the fine art of finish and embellishment.

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  #1  
Old 01-11-2015, 07:06 PM
jellyroll jellyroll is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Spring, TX
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Fillet Knife Stropping Question

I hope this is the right forum...............
I'm a noob here......been reading lots of good info.
First off, I am not a knife maker or a blade guru. Y'all make me quite jealous with your creations. One day I'll get there!
But here is my sharpening question.
I have sharpened plenty of knives. From dull as a butter knife to razor sharp. I even tinker in leather work and have to strop plenty of my tools that I can bring back to razor sharp in a matter of a few strokes.
I just wanted to make clear that I do have experience in sharpening, but will admit that I am definitely no expert.
But recently I have been stumped with my attempts to sharpening a fillet knife. This is an F Dick's 6" curved blade fillet knife and the only marking that I can read for metal content states "High Carbon - no stain"
My friend let me have it to sharpen for him and every time I take it to the strop, I swear I am dulling the blade.
I have taken this blade from a coarse stone, to a medium stone, to a fine stone, to an Arkansas translucent stone that shaves hair when I am complete.
But, as soon as I run it over the strop about 15 times, the blade won't even catch a fingernail. After the first time, I figured I screwed up and repeated the process......again same thing. So I repeated the steps above three more times and all with the same results.
I even took another fixed blade knife and put an edge on it after stropping just to make sure I wasn't doing anything weird.
So what the heck is going on?? And by the way, this is my first fillet knife to strop.
Is the flexible nature of the blade causing me problems?
Does anyone know if this blade is too soft?
Have I just not stropped enough and need to strop this thing 60+ times?
My sharpening angle is around 25-degrees +/- and I am doing nothing different from other knives I strop.
I am clueless at this point.
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  #2  
Old 01-12-2015, 05:14 AM
jellyroll jellyroll is offline
 
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Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 5
One clarification and I tried another attempt one more time last night........
My initial angle started out around 12 through the first 2 attempts. But I thought maybe this angle was too shallow and the strop was taking off the edge.
So the next two attempts were around 22-25 (although a little steep, I thought why not). Still no luck.
Then, my last attempt last night I went back to the 12 degrees and then did a very slow strop feeling the blade after every couple of passes. Even kept the blade almost flat on the strop.
Same dang thing...........
I know I am doing something wrong.
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  #3  
Old 01-12-2015, 05:36 AM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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Since we don't have an idea of the steel type and such, it may just be the steel. Cheap steel has large carbides that make getting a shaving edge difficult. You may be getting a wire edge that the stropping is removing and leaving a flat. For the last strokes on the stone, try turning the blade to 30deg and very lightly running it down the stone on both sides to remove the wire edge then strop. For a fillet knife though I'd finish on a 220 grit diamond stone to get a micro tooth edge that is better for slicing than a honed edge.
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  #4  
Old 01-12-2015, 07:43 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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Another thing that is all too possible when it comes to hand ground fillet blades (and not your doing)....a lot of pretty decent custom makers that grind regular blades quite well, tend to burn the very thin fillet blades near the tip. The blade flexes away from the belt so the tendency is to add a little more pressure, especially if the belt has started to dull. Wind up with de-tempered edges that as JM mentioned will just go "flat" on the strop. May not be your case, but have seen it happen time and again.

I always use a fresh belt on the final sharpening grinds just because of that issue.


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  #5  
Old 01-12-2015, 10:37 AM
jellyroll jellyroll is offline
 
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Interesting thoughts.............
It seems like the tip of the blade is what goes dull first while stropping. And I have really worked the tip in the first steps to get it nice and sharp prior to stropping. I have some scrap leather and it punches right through with ease before I strop.
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  #6  
Old 01-13-2015, 06:05 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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If it is actually slicing/skiving leather (several times) well, prior to stropping, then possibly you might revisit your stropping procedure. Thin flexible blades take much less pressure on the strop than stiffer blades. If you are using a loaded belt and pushing too hard in the flex toward the end of the sweep, it could be micro grinding the final edge once the burr is gone. Still can't see it doing this without a lot of extra pressure if the blade is holding it's temper.
Not criticizing your procedure, just trying to help you figure out what's going on. Hard to say without watching your process.
I've almost stopped stropping on leather entirely and do it on my grinder with a felt belt lightly loaded with green. Light pressure on slack belt setup. Razor sharp in two passes.


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  #7  
Old 01-13-2015, 08:23 AM
jellyroll jellyroll is offline
 
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I'm sure my process can be improved.
I think I'll give it another shot at stropping, but really go VERY light and try to support the blade more especially near the tip. If I can't get it this way, then I'll just give it back to him after a final honing.
At this point, I'm more annoyed at not being able to do it. From an actual performance basis, the knife will still cut flesh well, but I like to see a polish on a blade and just don't like getting beat.
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  #8  
Old 01-15-2015, 06:15 AM
jellyroll jellyroll is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Spring, TX
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I've made some progress finally.
After resharpening it again, I decided to use my kitchen steel to see if might realign it better. It worked well. I was able to have a sharper knife than before so I decided to then take it back to the strop.
This time I literally acted like I was buttering a slice of bread on the strop. Nice and easy and very light.
The knife was then able to shave hairs off of my arm. I think I could have gotten it sharper if I had worked it a little longer, but I was just fed up with sharpening by this point. I might work it a little more on the strop just for grins...........but I sure as heck hope it doesn't go dull again.
Glad I had this trouble and got to learn some new things. I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions.
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  #9  
Old 02-09-2016, 11:45 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Not trying to sound smart alecky or anything, but is there a reason you want to put a razor's edge on a filet knife? In the 70s I worked on my Dad's boat we commercial fished and took out charters as well. A razor's edge on a knife would cut through the fish well enough, but when you go to slice the skin off by pulling the fish towards you a super sharp knife would cut through the skin. Unless you want to leave the skin on the filet a razor's edge is not good. Plus they don't last very long.

A simple arkansas/whetstone medium edge is what you want if you're going to skin the fish filets. For a filet knife what you want above all is an edge that can cut through the bones without dulling. It is the reason I ever made my own knife. I got tired of sharpening my blades every 5 minutes. If you have to filet and skin over one hundred fish in a couple of hours then you can appreciate my dilemma.
Luckily an old guy at my regular job told me how to temper some files and grind them down carefully without turning them blue. Put them in the oven at 400 degrees until they turned the color of cardboard and then grind to size and have a water bucket handy. I used ice cream sticks and duct tape for the handles, but those knives were good, plus I found an old butcher's knife that was hard as well for the big "barn door" pacific halibut. Not a single stainless blade, I just oiled and rolled those files up in a piece of canvas. (They were all Nicholson files, it was the 70's, no cheap chinese stuff).

A knife that is razor sharp isn't good for skinning fish, it cuts through the skin too easily. Believe it or not, but sometimes there is such a thing as too sharp.

Last edited by jimmontg; 02-09-2016 at 11:48 PM.
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  #10  
Old 02-10-2016, 04:37 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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Agree with you Jim. I always try to get the buyer/end user to describe what they intend the blade to do. Most serious hunters/fishers actually want just what you described. We always called it a "butcher's" edge. More of a rugged micro serrated edge that will cut much longer and handle the occasional bone bump without dulling.

That being said I do have a customer or two that always want their hunting knives "razor" sharp and we all know the customer is always right. Always try to feel them out before taking an order just in case. I also have to face the reality that most of my upper end blades will only cut paper once or twice to impress some friend then land on a shelf....way of the world. Rather see them bloodied and stained myself, good knives need an occupation and not a rest home.


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  #11  
Old 02-11-2016, 07:05 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Talking

Thanks for your reply and I know what you mean about has to be a razor's edge. A fine india stone is my favorite finished edge, but for a filet knife have to go medium, but the customer is right.
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