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Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith.

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  #16  
Old 12-11-2007, 11:46 AM
LYNN DRURY LYNN DRURY is offline
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Grinders

I Have A Coote And Really Like It, But I Just Got My First Kmg With A Variable Ac Motor. There Is No Comparison. A Kmg Will Do So Much More.
Imo The Coote Has The Best Tracking.


Lynn Drury
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  #17  
Old 12-14-2007, 05:40 AM
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Tried all sorts of grinders and yes if I had the money I'd have a KMG but my coote is doing grand service and I wouldn't replace it
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  #18  
Old 12-14-2007, 05:21 PM
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Besides the obvious, is there any real difference between the coote and the griz., I mean as far as belt tracking, ect..ect...? Another reason I ask is beacause w/ the coote, you'd have to buy/supply a motor and grinder assembly and with the griz. you get both with a buffer to boot. Seems to me that the griz (unless the tracking...ect.. is much better) would be the better buy. Coote grinder (less motor) for 395.00 + shipping VS. Griz. grinder (with motor & buffer) for 395.00 + shipping.

Then you have the KMG...although it will cost a arm and a leg, and the toes off the other, It's built like a tank and you can get fancy attachments for it once you get your prosthetic's paid for. Just seems like the KMG would be more versatile for sanding/grinding and making minor (itching) adjustments to those things that hook onto your nubs and tingle everytime you plug something up. Besides that, the KMG is sure to last a life-time or untill your blade gets caught in the belt wrong and goes flying..hitting your shinny titanium prosthetic then ricocheting into your good leg which sends blood flying everywhere and in the panic of all this happening blood gets into the vent of the motor shorting it out....then instinctively you reach (with your good arm) to turn off the switch and then fries off your fingers...... then your just S.O.L.

Just thinking out loud.
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  #19  
Old 12-14-2007, 06:19 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I'd say you have a pretty good grasp of the situation. Let me reiterate that the KMG is a far, far better machine than the Griz and if you can see your way to getting one then you should definitely do so even if you have to buy a minimal KMG.

But, if you just can't swing it and yet the KMG is still your ultimate goal, then I'd say the Griz is the smarter buy. The Coote is definitely built better and it tracks better but you can easily dump a lot of money on a Coote and end up with a pretty darned nice machine that still isn't a KMG even though the cost got too close for comfort. The knives you make with the Griz will pay for the KMG in short order and with a little luck you won't need any prosthetics at all ...


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  #20  
Old 12-15-2007, 08:31 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Merle Rush came up with a formula in the chat room last night that just about sums it all up....


CHEAP GRINDER + FRUSTRATION = KMG


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  #21  
Old 12-15-2007, 11:56 AM
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Julie Coffey Julie Coffey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Caffrey
Merle Rush came up with a formula in the chat room last night that just about sums it all up....


CHEAP GRINDER + FRUSTRATION = KMG

Thats why I hang around both he and you Ed, I'm hoping some of your wisdom will rub off!

J


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  #22  
Old 12-15-2007, 03:31 PM
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If we assume a universe in which a potential knife maker does not wish to make knives with files and sandpaper, then the following is TRUE:

IF (CASH >= PRICE(KMG)) THEN OH_HAPPY_DAY
ELSE
CHEAP GRINDER + FRUSTRATION = SOME_KNIVES_GET_MADE



If we assume a universe in which no grinder less than a KMG is worthy and the potential knife maker still does not want to use files and sandpaper then :


IF (GRINDER < KMG) NO_KNIVES_GET_MADE_AND_MAKER_LOOKS_FOR_ANOTHER_HOB BY



We've all had to struggle to buy some of our tools but we still managed to get most everything we need. It's hard to accept that sometimes it just is NOT possible to come up with the money no matter how great the advantage their might be to making that purchase. Buying a low priced and admittedly somewhat crappy grinder can keep you in the game. If you're in the game, you'll make money. If you make money in the game then, eventually, the game will pay for that wiser purchase. BUT....you have to stay in the game ....


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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 12-15-2007 at 03:34 PM.
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  #23  
Old 12-15-2007, 04:08 PM
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AUBE AUBE is offline
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lol good stuff guys
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers
If we assume a universe in which a potential knife maker does not wish to make knives with files and sandpaper, then the following is TRUE:

[SIZE="4"] CHEAP GRINDER + FRUSTRATION = SOME_KNIVES_GET_MADE


We've all had to struggle to buy some of our tools but we still managed to get most everything we need. It's hard to accept that sometimes it just is NOT possible to come up with the money no matter how great the advantage their might be to making that purchase. Buying a low priced and admittedly somewhat crappy grinder can keep you in the game. If you're in the game, you'll make money. If you make money in the game then, eventually, the game will pay for that wiser purchase. BUT....you have to stay in the game ....
Thats the situation I find myself in. I could quite easily spend tens of thousands of dollars on all the equipment and materials I want but since I lack tens of thousands of dollars in disposable income I have to do it in baby steps. I have already applied Merles formula to a few things
cheap steel+frustration= good steel ... cold blue+frustration=hot bluing setup ..cheap files+frustration=good files, etc....just a matter of time for a KMG. I have recently discovered I don't like hand forging damascus, eats up a lot of time so now I'm dreaming of a hydraulic press and KMG.
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  #24  
Old 12-15-2007, 05:33 PM
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Ray,

I'm not trying to force anyone into anything they cannot afford, just trying to be as honest a forth coming as possible. As with most things, we never realize how poorly our grinders perform/performed until we get our hands on a better machine. Most of us who have been around a while have spent money two times plus on grinders, and if a newbie can afford to spend the money only once, I'm going to encourage them to do it. For the money that I spent on building/buying "cheap" grinders, I could have purchased 3 fully decked out KMGs... thats why I used the term "pay me now, or pay me later."

Its true that the newbies COULD go about it just as you and I have, but if they have the means, why not encourage them to not make the same mistakes that we had to, because nobody was there to tell us differently?


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  #25  
Old 12-15-2007, 06:11 PM
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I couldn't agree more, Ed. My comments were primarily directed to those who simply do not have the funds. For them, a single $400 investment that can have them making knives for the next two or three years is not a bad financial choice, especially if it provides a path to get to the better grinder. That concept is why I favor the Griz over the Coote - the Coote is much nicer but also tempts you to spend more on the available expansion options. You end up with a pretty nice grinder but it still isn't a KMG. It can lead to a KMG but will probably take longer due to the temptation of buying the expansion options on the Coote.

I want to avoid creating a feeling in that Newbie that if he doesn't have a KMG he simply can't play with us. It's like a school kid that just has to have a $200 pair of sneakers to be accepted by the clique. Some people just don't have the money and others who have it aren't willing to plunge that far before they are sure knife making is something they want to stay with. Either way, they're more likely to spend a $400 one time investment than $2000.

I absolutely recommend that if you can afford a KMG or some other high end grinder then you should get it. Your learning curve will be shorter and the quality of your work will improve much faster. On the other hand, if for any reason you are unable to commit to that level of spending, then you shouldn't feel like an outcast for buying a serviceable old work horse like the Griz - with all its admitted limitations - to use until you can move up ...


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  #26  
Old 12-15-2007, 09:59 PM
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Here's a comment I'll throw in as a newb.

I'd like to have a KMG. Heck, I'd like to have almost any 2x72 belt grinder. For the first year and a half I have been on this forum, I used hack saws, a drill press, a Dremel, and files to make my knives. This summer I added a 2x42 Craftsman belt sander, and it's really sped up the process for me.

While I love this hobby, and it would be nice to afford the top of the line grinder, I can't. I have to go by stepping stones. My biggest problem in learning to make knives is that the process is slow. I drill holes around the outline of my knife and then play connect the dots with a Dremel and cut-off wheels on the barstock. Then I finish the profile with files. It takes me 4-6 hours to get a blank out of bar stock, working at it 30 minutes at a time here and there. Yes, I know I need to invest in a band saw. But that's another expense that's a detour to getting a better grinder. Once I have the blank, on a knife with 3-4 inch blade it probably takes me another 4 hours or more to file the bevels. Then I take it to the 2x42 to take out most of the file marks. I don't know how much time I spend hand sanding. This time is all spread out over several weeks.

The first 3 knives I made were stainless, so I could send out for heat treat. Stainless is more expensive then carbon steels, and heat treating a couple of blades at a time isn't economical when you throw in the shipping. Now I'm trying to learn to do my own heat treat with O-1 and 1095. I have a knife ready for heat treat about every 4-6 weeks. It's difficult to develop "technique" when the process moves that slowly. I have had blades warp, and I have had them fail to harden. OK, I can figure out what I'm doing wrong, and in another 4-6 weeks I get to try and correct the mistake, and then finally have a knife heat treated properly that I can test out my edge geometry.

As an unknown maker, and one with very low output, a knife I make to sell to save up for a KMG does not have the attraction of someone doing this more regularly, even compared to some of those part-time makers who hang around forums long enough to build up a group of buying followers. Ebay is flooded with hobby knifemakers and assemblers and the rendevous market is flooded with $20 el cheapo trade knife reproductions--typical markets for new makers. So, if a person like me can sell knives in the $50 to $100 range, we're doing pretty good.

When you can manage to drill and file 3-4 knives a year that are good enough to sell, that's slow going if you are holding out for a KMG, especially while you are buying supplies to keep you in knife making material. Anything that speeds up the process, even a Grizzly with crappy tracking, is an improvement. I'm not talking about speeding things up to sell knives faster, I'm talking about speeding the process up enough to be able to actually learn from the mistakes I make and learn knifemaking, and making a knife good enough to sell. So, after drilling and filing a couple of years, if I have enough for a Grizzly or Coote I will probably buy one of those, and then start over to save up for the KMG, rather than keep drilling and filing for a few years longer.

So, those of us that have to do it the hard way--will have to do it the hard way. We will buy the crappy grinders, and years later when we finally get a KMG we will admit that what we used to use was a poor choice. But we have to get there first.

Nathan
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  #27  
Old 12-16-2007, 04:50 AM
cdent cdent is offline
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Hi Nathan,
Good post. Consider an inexpensive angle grinder with cut off and grinding wheels to profile your blanks and maybe start bevels quite a bit quicker. And, consider picking up good ceramic 36, 50 or 60 grit belts for the 2x42". I'd use the machines to get closer to size before the hand work starts.

Best of luck, Craig
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  #28  
Old 12-16-2007, 09:38 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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My take on all this

Some of this points have been made in other posts but here is my take on this arguement over equiptment, bullet style.

Trying to use the wrong or "make do" tools can frustrate learning to make knives but the best equiptment in the world will not make up for the lack of skill.

Knives have been made without power equiptment for one heck of a lot longer than they have been made with power tools and they can still be made that way.

Tools that are far from optimal can still be usable but you have to work within their limitations.

Start with hand tools because, even after you get the power tools, you are still going to have to use them on occasions.

It should not be an arguement between power tools and hand tools. Both can be used to get the job done.

Professional knife makers pretty much need the best power tools available to keep production high enough to make a living at constructing knives.

Most of us will never or even want to make knives for a living. We have to balance the needs of our hobby against all our other needs. This gives us a much different outlook on this matter than the professional.

I don't hold anything that I have said above to be particularly sage or profound so take them or leave them as you will.

Doug Lester


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  #29  
Old 12-16-2007, 11:04 AM
Wade Holloway Wade Holloway is offline
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Good points all Doug. There is a guy on another forum that makes great knives and I do not think he even owns a power tool. (not really) He does just about everything by hand including only using files on the blades and then hand sands afterward. Certainly knives can be made without power tools, they were made that way for hundreds of years. Most makers and me included are always drawn to having the tools. I guess it is kinda like that old show Tool Time, you know the one where he always is talking about MORE POWER. Too many times people are drawn to them because they think they can do better if they just had a new power tool, which is sometimes right and sometimes wrong. IMHO, most of the time power tools can just make you do the job faster not better. Even with all that said it does not take away from the discussion here. If I was going to upgrade to a power tool I would want to know the pro and cons of the tool I was thinking about, only then can one make an educated choice on which way to go. Some it may be the more economic route, others can afford the more expensive way right out of the box.
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  #30  
Old 12-16-2007, 11:45 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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My problem when it comes to tools is having to remind myself that dieing with the most toys does not make me the winner.

Doug Lester


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