run out

[Webster]

Hey guys,

Work has really tied me down the last couple of months and I'm glad to be back. I jumped right into the shop this weekend and fought with my milling machine. The run out is .0015, I just can't seem to get it any better. My question is, is this good enough to build folders???

Bob Cannon

[Don Robinson]

That shouldn't be a problem if you use a center drill to start any precision hole.

Now get to work and build a folder!

[Osprey Guy]

Don-

I hate to be the village idiot...but can you explain about a center drill and how that would help me?

I'm still learning about such things. I'm getting considerably better at drilling accurate holes, but still could use much help.

I have a 12" VS Delta drill press (I know I need to buy a better chuck, but it'll have to get in line behind other "must haves").

I've made my drill press table as square as possible by eyeballing it...using a machinist square and one of my carbide reamers chucked into the press (I figure at cost of around $20, the reamer should be straight). BTW-How do I measure my runnout as accurately as the .0015 as Bob is reporting above?

I currently start off by marking my hole's location with a fine tip carbide punch, followed by a 1/16" pilot hole. Then, when required, I drill slightly undersized, followed by a 4 flute solid carbide reamer to size.

For the most part, I suppose my ability to drill accurate holes could be worse, but I know I still need to be more proficient if I'm to achieve any degree of real accuracy.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated...


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[Frank Niro]

Hi Dennis. If you take a coat hanger and bend it like a "Z", stick one leg in the chuck, adjust the table up or down, and even open or close the other leg until it just touches a spot in the table: now rotate the chuck by hand, and your table alignment horizontaly to the chuck will show up . If you find a low spot you may be able to easily correct if you have an adjustable table, otherwise you may be able to correct with the use of say a 1/4" metal plate over lay with shimming in the correct spot. To check on the spinble run out you require a dial and on of those magnetic stands to set it up. Hand rotation of the spindal will immediately show deviation. This is where not much out is bad. A little out on the table especially if read from the spindle to the outside edge goes to very little when you consider the distance across the blade you are going to drill through. It won't be at much of an angle. Frank

[Osprey Guy]

Thanks Frank-

I already knew about the coat hanger thing (someone posted that little trick some time ago in these forums...I've since shown it to others)...I forgot to mention that I do that first, and also use the machinist's square set against a chucked-up 1/4" carbide reamer.

I've seen those dials and magnetic stands...have had no idea what they're for or how they're used. Please keep in mind that less than 2 years ago, if I hammered a nail in the wall to hang a picture...that's about all I knew when it came to tools, workshops, etc. With very few exceptions, just about everything I now know on the subject, I learned off of the Internet...and most of that by far, was right here in the CKDF!

I've soaked up a lot over these past 2 years,,,but I have so much more to learn! I feel as if I've only just scratched the surface...My head still starts to spin whenever I find myself trying to read instructions written in "shop lingo"...

I'm hoping to find a machine shop class of some sort in this area...if only to learn how to properly drill an accurate hole!


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[Don Robinson]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Osprey Guy
[B]Don-

I hate to be the village idiot...but can you explain about a center drill and how that would help me? (snipped)

You betchum, Red Ryder.

Your main problem is using a center punch. Never do that if you want a precise location.

Always use a center drill to start a precision hole. To an old time machinist or tool maker, that's what nowadays is called a "combination drill and countersink", sold by all industrial machine shop suppliers. The folks who make catalogs nowadays don't know that these little drills were used to center drill a shaft or piece in a metal lathe to provide a center hole for a lathe center. Also to start any hole on center.

Look in the yellow pages for a local industrial supplier or get them from MSC or Enco.

Get youself a set from MSC or for your uses, get a no.1 and no. 2 size.

You'll find these in all the catalogs. They have a small short, stubby drill followed by a 60 degree countersink.

These drills are so short and strong they won't deflect. The small drill on the end won't walk around on the surface of the workpiece.

Now, if you're transferring a hole location from let's say, a liner to a bolster, clamp or glue the parts together, use a drill the same size as the existing hole in the liner to spot the location thru the existing hole into the bolster underneath. Watch carefully, and when you see the drill start, back off. All you want is a spot .

Next, use the size drill you need, and drill the hole in the bolster. The drill will pick up the spot and remain on location.

There you go, Dennis, solved all your problems.

Look in your copy of "My Way" for a picture of a center drill and the way to use it.

[Don Robinson]

And, Dennis, the accurate way to align your drill press table to the spindle is to use a dial test indicator and a corresponding holder in your drill chuck. MSC or Enco. The cheapest import will do fine.

Otherwise Frank Niro's advise about the coat hanger works.

[plain ol Bill]

Don when you used the phrase "You betchum, Red Ryder" you showed your age buddy. Only us ol goats know who that was I bet -- but do you remember Little Beaver too?

[Don Robinson]

I was Little Beaver.

[Webster]

I've been in the shop since 9:00 this morning working on that folder. It's going good, I think. Dennis, I use a dial test indicator to get the run out as Don mentioned. I also use a machinist square to double check everything. I make a habit of checking the run out on my mill and drill press before every new knife I build. It is amazing how things change. A good dial test indicator runs about $80.00, I'm a big believer in FOWLER and their part # on the one I have is 52-563-777. Hope this helps.

Bob Cannon

[Osprey Guy]

Thanks guys...

I hear and obey!


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[CDS]

Dennis,
I was pretty much in your shoes when it came to using dial indicators. I am fairly comfortable with it now. I found this link to be a good read about the different types and brands. Especially if you are planning the purchase of one. There are links all over the site. Hope maybe it will help prevent a buying mistake. No affiliation at all.
Chris S.
http://www.longislandindicator.com/dialindicators.html

[Ray Rogers]

I'm just curious Dennis - what kind of knife are you wanting to build and why is the exact amount of run out important to you? I have the indicator and tools necessary to measure the runout but have never felt the need to use them . If the runout is small enough that it's difficult to see with your naked eye, then it's fairly easy to adjust for it as you go by using those counter sink drills that Don recommended ........

[Gary Mulkey]

Originally posted by Don Robinson
I was Little Beaver.

You're a good man, McGee.


Gary

[Osprey Guy]

Ray-

My primary interest is simply learning how to end up with accurately drilled holes.

I'm currently making a damascus blade for my "Rock 'n Roll" Typhoon balisong. It required 4 holes drilled in a diamond pattern...2 side-by-side pivot holes and 2 holes for stop pins above and below in between the two pivot holes.
The pivot holes can withstand a small amount of slop, but the stop pin holes had to be dead on...The stop pins prevent the closed handles from moving side-to-side on the pivots. The handles close over one stop pin when the blade is out, and close over the other stop pin when the blade is closed (sitting inside the handles). The slightest deviation in the stop pins will cause the blade to "tilt" too far to one side or another, especially critical when the blade is in the open position.

I finally got the holes drilled accurately, but not after numerous "practice" blades, and ruining a piece of damascus with improperly drilled holes (one was off by a few thousandths). I'll still have to ream the holes after heat treat. (and lighly spot anneal the tang so that I can knock in the stop pins without splitting the hardened steel, all the while using heat sink to protect the blade from the heat).

I have yet to grind that blade, and that has to be precise as well...Don't think I'm not more than a little intimidated of that prospect...I've been practicing, and practicing, and practicing on profiled weld steel (similarly profiled to the real thing), just to make sure I've got my grind skills down pat prior to attempting the grind on the real thing.

This balisong blade turned out to be a far greater challenge than the folder blade I did awhile ago (on the since lost DDR2 with the nude carved in the spine). It's a lot easier when there's only one pivot hole with which to worry.

BTW-Did I forget to mention that a portion of the balisong blade is going to be carved?

I'm certain this could have gone a lot easier if I had more experience with the drill.


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!