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  #46  
Old 11-20-2009, 07:30 AM
Tai Google Tai Google is offline
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Cool Chuck. Thanks for the report.

Now imagine a 7 incher,... a real hogging hammer at 4 pounds!...


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  #47  
Old 11-20-2009, 12:03 PM
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Yea that's what I am looking forward to.


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  #48  
Old 11-22-2009, 10:50 AM
deloid deloid is offline
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Hi Tai,

I have a couple of anvils:
Fisher (125#)
Peter W. (165#).
Because of the 50:1 rule I tend to use my 4 pound hammer only occasionally on the Peter W.

Is the issue with this "rule" more about efficiency or is it a concern for damage?
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  #49  
Old 11-23-2009, 01:15 PM
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That is an excellent question to bring up on this thread. I would like to hear from some of our more experienced smiths for some opinions.

Thanks ahead.


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  #50  
Old 11-23-2009, 03:19 PM
Tai Google Tai Google is offline
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I've never heard of the 50:1 rule,... so, I guess I don't go by it.

I don't even have 50 hammers!

Seriously though, my guess is it's a little of both, but I'd be curious to know how it got started.

I did bust the horn off a 50 lb "cast iron" anvil with a 4 pound hammer a long time ago though... dropped off nice and clean. Ever since then,... I swear by well heat treated solid "cast steel" anvils.

I think it's really a matter of common sense.

If you can't bounce the anvil with a hammer, it's probably heavy enough.

If it's cast iron, you have to be real careful with it, especially the horn, heel and corners. If it's cast iron with a welded steel platen, you have to be careful with it.

I think it would be cool as heck to see someone split a 175 pound anvil of any kind, right down the middle, with one of my 4 pound hammers!


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Last edited by Tai Google; 11-23-2009 at 04:52 PM.
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  #51  
Old 11-23-2009, 10:08 PM
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Raymond Richard Raymond Richard is offline
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My anvils didn't come with any rules or directions. Never heard of the 50 to 1 rule.


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  #52  
Old 11-23-2009, 10:14 PM
deloid deloid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond Richard
My anvils didn't come with any rules or directions. Never heard of the 50 to 1 rule.
No instructions or directions but there are improper methods of use that are common knowledge. This however seems to be more a matter of efficiency.
The 50:1 rule which may come from the Anvilfire site is also present in other forms in older literature:
---------------------
"It is based on common shop usage and anvil efficiency ratios.

Anvil efficiency is 40% at 10:1 and 70% at 20:1. This is suitable for machines but when its your personal physical energy that is being wasted then efficiency is VERY important. At 50:1 efficiency is 96% to 97%.

In general use you find farriers using 100 pound anvils for portability and roughly 2 pound hammers for forging. That is a 50:1 ratio.

In the general shop the recommendation was a 200 pound anvil and up to a 4 pound hammer. Again 50:1. This is from centuries of shop and field practice.

In the heavy forge shop where sledges are used a lot anvils of 300 to 500 pounds are common with sledges of 6 to 10 pounds. Again roughly 50:1.
So, it doesn't matter if you are using a little 20 pound bench anvil and a 6oz hammer or a 500 pound anvil and a 10 pound sledge. Shop practice and efficiency ratios say 50:1 is the right ratio.
However, smiths working at over the 50:1 rule say they can tell the difference, get more work done and are less tired at the end of the day.
Less is inefficient (wasting your energy) more doesn't hurt. "
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  #53  
Old 11-24-2009, 08:00 AM
Tai Google Tai Google is offline
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I figure it's probably just for European type blacksmith and farrier anvils, which are somewhat inefficient anyway, due to the "T" shaped form and the ringing. Also, the efficiency ratio changes depending on where you hit it. It may also be because many of the hammers that go with them and the techniques used are inefficient as well,... short stubby broad flat faced hammers with long handles, beating on cold metal etc.

Japanese cutler type anvils and any similar upright bar type anvils are much more efficient for their sizes. Larger anvils are not necessarily more efficient.

I can't see it as any sort of universal forging rule, and think it's actually kind of silly.
There's probably some element of truth to it, (in some cases) but it sounds like more of a rule for beginners and/or the mentally challenged...

My rule,... "Take what you read on the internet with a grain of salt, get out in the shop, do some work and find out for yourself."


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Last edited by Tai Google; 11-24-2009 at 08:23 AM.
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  #54  
Old 11-24-2009, 09:21 AM
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Don?t limit yourself to small inefficient hammers and poor technique, because you think your anvil might be a little too small. You?ll waste a lot more energy that way.

? That being said, I sure hope my arm is the right size with the proper muscle to fat ratio, for maximum efficiency with my anvil.

(Sorry Dean, I couldn't resist.)


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Last edited by Tai Google; 11-24-2009 at 09:24 AM.
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  #55  
Old 11-24-2009, 10:16 AM
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Raymond Richard Raymond Richard is offline
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This sounds like an old sales pitch to me. My 150 pound Trenton has been abused by me for years now and I've never heard it complain about me using to large of a hammer.


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  #56  
Old 11-24-2009, 11:02 AM
deloid deloid is offline
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Perhaps but there is logic in the thought process that a larger anvil will be cause less fatigue when using a larger hammer. Think about mass and rebound.
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  #57  
Old 11-24-2009, 11:18 AM
Tai Google Tai Google is offline
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There is definitely something to the ratio between the size of the anvil and the size of the hammer. I don't think anyone is arguing about that. Although, I wouldn't hold the 50:1 rule as an absolute, above all others or carve it in granite. There are also lots of other variables to consider with overall efficiency.

Anyway,... at least now I can say I've heard of the 50:1 rule.


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  #58  
Old 11-24-2009, 11:34 AM
deloid deloid is offline
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Not worried

I'm not worried about it all...mostly curious. If I got to the point that I was hammering 8 hours a day five days a week I would probably get a larger anvil. But if I did that my popeye arms would interfere with guitar playing
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  #59  
Old 11-24-2009, 11:39 AM
Tai Google Tai Google is offline
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?Size isn?t everything.?

Hey Ray! Hey! When you get here,? I?ll let you bounce the 4 lb prototype (Rockwell 53) off my 175 pound Kolswa a few times? Talk about rebound!

... It?ll darn near send the head flying through the roof!


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  #60  
Old 11-24-2009, 12:55 PM
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I use 2 feet of RR track. I bet trains are pretty heavy.


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