Cold rolled ATS-34 problem

My, my, my, am I ever happy to see this post!!!!!!!! I bought some Hot Rolled ATS34 steel from Sheffields about a month ago. Made up about thirty five blades and went to polish them and got these "inclusions" ( I have been told they are called). Looks kind of like a finger print on the steel surface. But no matter how much you grind, they are still there. I sand blasted the finish on all of them. I was lucky they were all fighters. ATS34 has been getting real sloppy lately, in my opinon. I hope it is not getting like 154CM did. I would hate to switch to another steel. I got some steel from Ardimral one time and that was enought for me. I do not deal with those people. The thing that frustrates me is like Steve said, you put all this time in the blades and don't know these are there until you start to polish. At that point you have a bunch of time and expence in the blade!! I sure do hope they get it fixed soon. I have some sub-hilt fighters I have to make in full polish, and I am scared to go with ATS34 right now. But, you know what? I bet the sun will come up tomorrow morning. It ain't the end of the world, but it sure is frustrating. Take care, Mark

Frustration is the word for it!

Loveless and I even had the same problem, to a lesser degree, perhaps, with the early 154-CM. It, I am afraid, is just one of the things we have to deal with. Sometimes it's just a matter of luck, good and bad.

I have had a number of bad experiences with ATS-34 from Admiral. I think there are a couple things going on. For one thing I got some dirty material, having bubbles or inclusions within the steel that I think reflects Hitachi quality problems. The other is the general graininess resported - that orange peel look when you polish it. This may in fact have two sources. One is that ATS-34, unlike 154CM is rolled in just one dimension so there is a definite linear grain to the steel. The second is that the Admiral material is shear plate, and is in fact sheared as opposed to sawn, water jet or laser cut. That may induce shock related artifacts in the steel. Crucible cross rolls 154CM, rolling it once in one direction then rotating it 90 degrees and rolling again, so the grain is generally reduced and the linearity is removed.

I have found 154CM to be much cleaner and it is sawn to size, not sheared.

All that said, if you want really fantastically clean and an almost liquid appearance when polished, try RWL-34 from Sweden. Steve mentioned this some months ago; I tried it and found it is well worth the trouble and expense if a perfect mirror is your goal. It's a powder metallurgy version of ATS-34 with a dash (0.2%) Vanadium which aids in grain reduction as well as a bit of additional wear resistance. Great stuff.

As Steve observed, I found that Bruce DiVita at Crucible Steel is a great guy and very helpful. Bruce is THE man at Crucible for knife steel.

Lots to this issue, and I'm sure this all just scratches the surface.

Tahnks for the input, Jerry.

I have no complaints with the usual bar-stock ATS-34. Most suppliears have it.

I have a piece o fo new 154-CM in the shop that I'm going to try. I'm getting a request for it inow and then. I'm sure it'll be nice stuff. I'll report w hen I get one finished.

It was good to see you in Orlando, along with those cute little knives ground with the 1" (or less?) wheel. You are definately younger than me, those little grinds are the proof!

Ray,

I just ordered a bunch of L-6 from Admiral but haven't used any yet. I'm just starting out knife making and thought it would be a good steel to use. Were your defects in the L-6 visible when the knife was finished? Could someone also explain to me what normalizing is?

Thanks,

Shawn

Here's a start. You forgers can probalby be much more enlightening. Thanks for any comments you might have.

Normalizing:
A Process in which an iron-base alloy is heated to a temperature above the transformation range and subsequently cooled in still air at room temperature.

Another definition: Normalizing is a process which involves heating steel to slightly above the hardening temperature, soaking it at this temerature and cooling to room temperature in air. Normalizing relieves internal stresses due to machining, forging and cold working. It removes all previous effects due to heat treatment. Normalizing also softens hardened steel and improves its machinability. However it does not result in the uiformity and degree of sortness which is produced by full annealing. The grain structure of normalized seel is generally somewhat harder, less ductile, and has a finer pearlitic grain structure that full annealed steel.

Sounded like "Stress Relieving" to me. Here's a definition for that:

Stress Relieving:
A process to reduce internal residual stresses in a metal object by heating the object to a suitable temperature and holding for a proper time at that temperature. This treatment may be applied to relieve stresses induced by casting, quenching, normalizing, machining, cold working or welding. This is done by heating to a temperature slightly below the lower critical temperature.

Read this about annealing, which sheds a bit more light on the subject:

Annealing:
A term denoting a treatment, consisting of heating to and holding at a suitable temperature, followed by cooling at a suitable rate, used primarily to soften, but also to simultaneously produce desired changes in other properties or in microstructure. The purpose of such changes may be, but is not confined to, improvement of machinability; facilitation of cold working; improvement of mechanical or electrical properties; or increase in stability of dimensions. The time-temperature cycles used vary widely both in maximum temperature attained and in cooling rate employed, depending on the composition of the material, its condition, and the results desired. When applicable, the following more specific process names should be used: Black Annealing, Blue Annealing, Box Annealing, Bright Annealing, Cycle Annealing, Flame Annealing, Full Annealing, Graphitizing, Intermediate Annealing, Isothermal Annealing, Process Annealing, Quench Annealing, and Speroidizing. When the term is used without qualification, full annealing is implied. When applied only for the relief of stress, the process is properly called stress relieving.

OK ,you guys, straighten us out, please.

How about starting a new thread for this subject?

pub42.ezboard.com/fcustom...D=96.topic

Steve, I'll be 61 next month. I'll bet I'm not younger than you...

I don't recall have any trouble with the hot rolled bar stock in ATS-34 that I got from the knifemaking supply dealers. The problem I had was in getting it in anything larger than 1-1/2" widths. My Big knives need wide stock. That was why I tried Admiral, and what ultimately led me to Crucible. I get my 154CM by the half sheet and have it sawn into 4" strips, so I'm able to get good yield from the pieces. It sometimes makes for some thoughful bandsawing though.

Those blades you saw in Orlando were done on a 1" wheel, which is mostly just rough on the thumbs. I've been using a 2" wheel in the past couple weeks and that works a lot better (meaning less painful). For narrow swedges and double grinds it really gives nice deep grinds and crisp grind lines.

Yer lookin' at 53 here in Oct. Hey, I hide my age well!

Glad to hear the news about 154-Cm. I'm making one from it soon to give it a try. The cost, Inoticed in some cat., was actually a bit lower than ATS-34 in the same cat.

I'm looking for some2" ATS, 154 or RWL-34, myself. Preferrably in 5/16, but I'll probably have to go with 1/4". Those "Biggest Bear" sub-hilts take quite a chunk of iron. 'Course nothing like your big guys.

I'd rather grind with a 2' wheel than a 1' also.

Thanks, Jerry