first hidden tang design help

[J.Lec]

hey guys. I'm going to be making my first hidden tang knife. I think I have a basic understanding of how to build it just wanted a bit of a critique of the design (mainly from the choil back)
drawn to scale... one square of the grid paper is 1/4"

[Ray Rogers]

There are several designs for hidden tang knives. I call that one a 'stub tang' design and it is my favorite, I almost never make a fixed blade any other way. Nothing wrong with the design you have but it is a little more complicated than it needs to be. In particular, the area of the tang that the guard fits over is much wider that the remainder of the tang and this is not necessary. The entire tang can be about a half inch wide with a slight taper from the blade.

The tricky part - the part that really makes this design work - is the method you use for installing that single pin. I've described it at least twice before on these forums (try to Search for it) but if you can't find it and would like to hear the details just say so ...

[J.Lec]

thanks for the info ray. I sure would appreciate any info you could give. i've been looking for a hidden tang tutorial but there dosnt seem to be one in the newbies area.

[RICK LOWE]

What Ray said is right on point. You just need a step down from the spine and edge to fit the guard and then the tang can run out narrow. I lay the tang on the handle material when all is ready to fit and draw the tang shape. After epoxy has set, I drill the pin hole. Be sure that the tang is soft and hasn't hardened during heat treat or the hole will be a real pain. Understand that with wood, micarta, etc. the handle material is still flat during glue up. I shape these after everything is tight.
Rick

[Ray Rogers]

It's not exactly a tutorial but I just put this in the Tutorials at the top of the Newbies page:

http://www.rayrogers.com/stubtang.htm

[J.Lec]

thanks for the great info guys

[kvistads]

Good article Ray. I too use this hidden tang style on most of my knives due to the fact that I use a lot of Whitetail deer antler for handles. One area I've always had a lot of problems with and one that I didn't read in your tutorial was fitting the knife blade (Ricasso) and guard so that there isn't any space (gap) between the two. Fitting the tang and guard is not a problem because I grind the tang a little thinner than the Ricasso. I make my guards out of a piece of 1/4" x 1" brass or nickle silver stock with a slot cut out for the tang. I use the same process you do for making a slot only I use needle files to join the holes. BTW, I think your Dremel idea sounds a lot faster and easier and one I'll try to use next time. Once I have the slot cut in the guard so that it will slide up the tang, I use a slow, painstaking trial by effort way with small files to square-up the Ricasso area to the guard. I check the gap by sliding the guard on and holding up at the sunlight so as to see any space between the two. Slowly, but surely I finally get the two pieces to mate up with the least amount of gap possible and then use JB Weld to secure the guard.

I've thought of an idea of making a fixture from two identical pieces of knife steel, line up the straight edges, drill/tap holes for bolts and then harden. Use it like a clamp with the straight edges clamped around the knife's Ricasso and then file it to the straight edges of the jig. There's got to be a better way rather than the one I've been using. Any help here would be appreciated. I hope all this makes sense...

Thanks

[Ray Rogers]

Fitting the guard was outside the subject of my little article so it wasn't mentioned there. It certainly has been discussed many times in these forums and a Search should produce lots of threads on the subject with opinions from many knife makers for you to consider.

Some others also use the method you describe where the tang is reduced to better conceal the gap. This may produce the ultimate clean look for the guard fit up but it certainly is labor intensive. I'm lazy enough to leave my ricasso the same thickness as the tang, no reduction. After milling a slot in the guard (or drilling some holes and connecting them - doesn't matter) I use needle files to square the corners and adjust the width of the slot as needed.

After I have performed the process described in my article of fitting up the handle block and the pin I am ready to permanently attach the guard. I wait until this point because now the handle itself can act as a clamp to hold the guard in place perfectly positioned.

My method is to apply JB Weld all around the tang in the area where the guard will sit. The slid the guard in place which fills any gap with JB Weld and pushes the excess to the front side of the guard. The excess should form a bead completely around the slot on the front face of the guard. Leave the excess alone - do not touch it or try to remove it - but do make a note of the time.

Assemble the remainder of the handle so that the guard is held in position. This is not the final assembly of the handle so do not put in the epoxy at this time. Get a couple of paper towels and dampen them (damp, not wet). After ten minutes (don't skimp, wait the full ten) have passed use the damp towels to wipe away the excess JB Weld. The JB will clean easily at this point and leave a very thin bead around the slot in the guard, very similar to the results some sorcerers can get with solder. If you don't wait long enough before you clean the excess JB you'll pull the bead out of the guard slot.

Done correctly this method produces a fine looking joint, in the best cases almost invisible. Quite a few makers get great results with this process and I think you'll be pleased with the results too ....

[ckluftinger]

Kvistads, i have a rig like you describe. I went to a tool shop and bought two "parallels", hardened steel bars with holes drilled in the ends. I put two 1/4 inch bolts through them and use them like a clamp around the knife blank. helps to get the plunge cut sraight on both sides, as well as the shoulders on the tang square. These parallels are pretty cheap. I think they cost me six bucks for the pair...

[kvistads]

Thanks again Ray and Chris. You gentleman have been a tremendous amount of help. Chris: I'm glad you said the word "shoulders" on the tang - that's the area I've been having trouble with. I remember reading in the past of someone talking about a jig they made for the plunge cut, so I thought the same idea could be applied to the shoulders of the Ricasso. You folks have a Merry Christmas.