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Heat Treating and Metallurgy Discussion of heat treatment and metallurgy in knife making.

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  #1  
Old 09-01-2015, 08:31 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Anyone know about this steel?

Looking for info on chrome nickel molybdenum steel Anyone use it before? Is it any good? Thanks in advance.
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  #2  
Old 09-01-2015, 10:12 PM
damon damon is offline
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which one? there are hundreds of alloys out there with those in them.

OK...... what are you ACTUALLY TRYING TO DO?

are you looking for the ONE AND ONLY MOST PERFECT STEEL ON THE PLANET?

sorry it doesn't exist.

if you want to be a MAKER.... forget about all these fancy alloy, or air quenching, or other complicating options. if you put the time into researching and working with the materials best for building your foundations as a maker then youll more quickly on your way.

if you just want to be a DESIGNER....then fine... keep looking up all the hi-tech alloys and then contract out the parts and processes, order you a CNC and learn to program that so youll get the exact geometries and degree of cutting angle on every piece.



I realize im probably going to piss you off with this because my way of explaining things tends to do that.... not my intention.

when you first are looking for a job right out of high school.... you DONT START OFF AS THE BOSS!
you start at an entry level position.

quit trying to start at the top.


there are several books out there on knife making with a section on the differences of steels (carbon, stainless,.....) as they pertain to knife makers. wayne goodards books, the bob loveless one has info on steels too, there is one put out by Blade "the guide to knife making" I think....... and many others im sure. these are just some of the ones I have. if you want the info on what alloys do what in a steel... there is a place to get a bit more info. read, study, learn.... BUT.... get your hands dirty too with materials that are within your skill level to control. start off in kindergarten, and work up to college.

I have 30yrs working with metals, 24 working with jewelry, almost 9 hand engraving, and 5 1/2 making knives to buy my groceries. yet im still in 5th grade at best when it comes to serious knife making. I know (from first hand mistakes too) what materials im not ready for. I can also empathize a bit how this must feel being told by many on here "you need this, or that..." that drove me nuts when I was poorer and mainly had hand/jewelers tools, and was using mainly the scarps off the shop floors of other makers, or whatever they generously gave me to work with. (still pisses me off being told "you need a surface grinder, or digital heat treat oven, or whatever $3000+ piece of equipment.... as if I don't know about them and just have $400,000 falling out my ass when I #### in the morning) being shown by these local makers how they work the steels, that became what I knew. not im finally in my own house, shop, and working with 1084, and W2. I still work with Alabama Damascus, (which has 5160, 52100, 15n20 in it), and other Damascus by different makers, but those are 1084/ 15n20... so basically im working it like 1084. (noticing the reoccurring theme here?) easy to work high carbon steels. having made a couple test blades with the 1084, and W2 to put through abuse testing.... that was a reall confidence builder. 5 years ago with the same steel I doubt I could have had the same result, but listening to and experience trying, as well as paying attention to every detail of what the steel is doing while you work it... over time (no other way really) the pieces start falling into place... using the magnet to check temp, not over heating, not leaving in heat too long, importance of symmetrically balanced grind, not having sharp cuts/angles (stress risers?), thinking about how each step im on will affect 5-10 steps later......... one could write a book on it all. oh wait many have. ;p take all of that and multiply it by there are many different ways to make knives.

I was given this advice too.... and sometimes it feels like a sucker punch to the ego, but that's not what these guys are here doing.

so lets take these fancy alloys.... put a pin in that *pop.... and well come back to that later.
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  #3  
Old 09-02-2015, 07:36 AM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damon View Post
which one? there are hundreds of alloys out there with those in them.

OK...... what are you ACTUALLY TRYING TO DO?

are you looking for the ONE AND ONLY MOST PERFECT STEEL ON THE PLANET?

sorry it doesn't exist.

if you want to be a MAKER.... forget about all these fancy alloy, or air quenching, or other complicating options. if you put the time into researching and working with the materials best for building your foundations as a maker then youll more quickly on your way.

if you just want to be a DESIGNER....then fine... keep looking up all the hi-tech alloys and then contract out the parts and processes, order you a CNC and learn to program that so youll get the exact geometries and degree of cutting angle on every piece.



I realize im probably going to piss you off with this because my way of explaining things tends to do that.... not my intention.

when you first are looking for a job right out of high school.... you DONT START OFF AS THE BOSS!
you start at an entry level position.

quit trying to start at the top.


there are several books out there on knife making with a section on the differences of steels (carbon, stainless,.....) as they pertain to knife makers. wayne goodards books, the bob loveless one has info on steels too, there is one put out by Blade "the guide to knife making" I think....... and many others im sure. these are just some of the ones I have. if you want the info on what alloys do what in a steel... there is a place to get a bit more info. read, study, learn.... BUT.... get your hands dirty too with materials that are within your skill level to control. start off in kindergarten, and work up to college.

I have 30yrs working with metals, 24 working with jewelry, almost 9 hand engraving, and 5 1/2 making knives to buy my groceries. yet im still in 5th grade at best when it comes to serious knife making. I know (from first hand mistakes too) what materials im not ready for. I can also empathize a bit how this must feel being told by many on here "you need this, or that..." that drove me nuts when I was poorer and mainly had hand/jewelers tools, and was using mainly the scarps off the shop floors of other makers, or whatever they generously gave me to work with. (still pisses me off being told "you need a surface grinder, or digital heat treat oven, or whatever $3000+ piece of equipment.... as if I don't know about them and just have $400,000 falling out my ass when I #### in the morning) being shown by these local makers how they work the steels, that became what I knew. not im finally in my own house, shop, and working with 1084, and W2. I still work with Alabama Damascus, (which has 5160, 52100, 15n20 in it), and other Damascus by different makers, but those are 1084/ 15n20... so basically im working it like 1084. (noticing the reoccurring theme here?) easy to work high carbon steels. having made a couple test blades with the 1084, and W2 to put through abuse testing.... that was a reall confidence builder. 5 years ago with the same steel I doubt I could have had the same result, but listening to and experience trying, as well as paying attention to every detail of what the steel is doing while you work it... over time (no other way really) the pieces start falling into place... using the magnet to check temp, not over heating, not leaving in heat too long, importance of symmetrically balanced grind, not having sharp cuts/angles (stress risers?), thinking about how each step im on will affect 5-10 steps later......... one could write a book on it all. oh wait many have. ;p take all of that and multiply it by there are many different ways to make knives.

I was given this advice too.... and sometimes it feels like a sucker punch to the ego, but that's not what these guys are here doing.

so lets take these fancy alloys.... put a pin in that *pop.... and well come back to that later.
As far s which one, not sure they are Craftsman Kromeedge saw blades.

Nah didnt piss me off at all your blunt just like me. I asked about the chrome nickel moly steel because i have a bunch of old saw blades that are actually decent size that i can get some decent size knives out of.

I understand im the noob which is why i have not ordered steel yet and am still working off scrap, because i dont feel im good enough yet to buy quality steel. Well that and i cant really afford to buy steel right now.

Last edited by VanceHanna; 09-02-2015 at 08:13 AM.
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  #4  
Old 09-02-2015, 10:01 AM
damon damon is offline
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don't be afraid of putting the $$ in to the steels we have suggested..... that's not the expensive stuff.

now the fancy mosaic Damascus stuff that goes for $20-$35 per INCH..... that's not the stuff you want to learn on.

as for the saw blades you have on hand to work with.... well if you can work them without burning he temper out then you should still have a perfectly usable blade. you just might need carbide drill bits to drill holes to pin the handles on. ($11-$30+each)
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  #5  
Old 09-02-2015, 10:46 AM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damon View Post
don't be afraid of putting the $$ in to the steels we have suggested..... that's not the expensive stuff.

now the fancy mosaic Damascus stuff that goes for $20-$35 per INCH..... that's not the stuff you want to learn on.

as for the saw blades you have on hand to work with.... well if you can work them without burning he temper out then you should still have a perfectly usable blade. you just might need carbide drill bits to drill holes to pin the handles on. ($11-$30+each)

They dont cut easy that is for sure they eat up the cut off disc. I did built a coffee can forge so i can do some heat treating. On the small knives that is. I understand you guys have suggested the cheaper steels but cheap steel is still more expensive than free saw blades.
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  #6  
Old 09-02-2015, 11:26 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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As Damon said, you haven't supplied us with enough information to come anywhere close to being able to identify the steel or help you with heat treating. An educated guess is that it's air quenching for ease in manufacturing but I could easily be wrong. If it's a high alloy steel then you are looking at a regulated oven, yours or a heat treaters, to properly harden the blade. Of course you can make the knife from the steel in it's hardened and tempered state, but as you have stated, it could be hard on your tools. You could also generate enough heat cutting the steel to change to temper, and the performance, of the blade. Then there's the possibility that the proper temper for the saw could be different from what you would want for a knife.

By the way, what sort of saw are we talking about here and how thick are they. A rather thin hand saw might not be thick enough to give a knife blade the strength that it needs.

Doug


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  #7  
Old 09-02-2015, 02:41 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Lester View Post
As Damon said, you haven't supplied us with enough information to come anywhere close to being able to identify the steel or help you with heat treating. An educated guess is that it's air quenching for ease in manufacturing but I could easily be wrong. If it's a high alloy steel then you are looking at a regulated oven, yours or a heat treaters, to properly harden the blade. Of course you can make the knife from the steel in it's hardened and tempered state, but as you have stated, it could be hard on your tools. You could also generate enough heat cutting the steel to change to temper, and the performance, of the blade. Then there's the possibility that the proper temper for the saw could be different from what you would want for a knife.

By the way, what sort of saw are we talking about here and how thick are they. A rather thin hand saw might not be thick enough to give a knife blade the strength that it needs.

Doug
They are Craftsman Kromeedge saw blades, it says on the blade chrome-nickel-moly steel, if i had to guess the blade is some where between 1/8 and 1/16 inch thick.
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  #8  
Old 09-02-2015, 07:44 PM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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I tried to dig into those. Couldn't really determine anything. My best guess is they are no more than .7% carbon. Unless you have a bunch of them to work out the heat treat I'd put them it the scrap bin.
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  #9  
Old 09-03-2015, 08:22 AM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Originally Posted by jmccustomknives View Post
I tried to dig into those. Couldn't really determine anything. My best guess is they are no more than .7% carbon. Unless you have a bunch of them to work out the heat treat I'd put them it the scrap bin.

Wish i could scrap them and call it a day but sadly i dont have the money to order steel right now, MAYBE Friday, And i just cant see wasting steel that i can practice on and lose nothing but some time if i mess up.
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