MEMBER ITEMS FOR SALE
Custom Knives | Other Knives | General Items
-------------------------------------------
New Posts | New PhotosAll Photos



Go Back   The Knife Network Forums : Knife Making Discussions > Custom Knife Discussion Boards > Knife Making Discussions > The Newbies Arena

The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 01-26-2012, 01:37 PM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 9,840
No, the steel won't melt but you'll get an undesirable crystalline structure in the steel. Exactly what depends on the exact temp and some other things but the bottom line is it will be a long way from being the best blade it could be.

Your sharpening process could be just fine but, like everything else it has to be done right. For instance, that hard buffing wheel can make a blade sharper than the average razor but if you roll the knife even slightly while using that wheel you can round off the edge in a heart beat. That's the problem with buffing the burr off, it's easy to buff the edge off with it. Try slicing a few pieces of cardboard with the burred edge, sometimes that will take the burr off and leave most of the edge.

Or, the problem could be your edge geometry. No one could say for sure from out here without knowing more about how the knife is ground and so on. But, whatever the problem may be the HT is likely to be the least of it since even a piece of mild steel can be sharpened to a shaving edge if the sharpening is done correctly. It won't hold the edge for long - that's what the HT is for - but it will get sharp ...


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!






Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-26-2012, 01:41 PM
Eli Jensen's Avatar
Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Posts: 872
You should throw up some pics
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-26-2012, 02:35 PM
cedarfluteman cedarfluteman is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Norwalk, Ohio
Posts: 45
1084 steel knife with cocobolo handle DSC_4977 (600x402).jpg

DSC_4976 (600x402).jpg

DSC_4975 (600x402) (2).jpg
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-26-2012, 02:54 PM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 9,840
Nice looking knife overall. I appears that the problem with sharpening will be partly related to the way your hollow grind was done. It seems to be a nice grind but the arc of the grind did not meet the edge of the blade. That means there is a very thick section directly behind the edge with the hollow grind sitting on top of it. So, it is as if you were sharpening a blade with a very thick edge and that's not good geometry for a small knife like that.

I would suggest that you first dull that edge real well and the re-grind the hollow so that it meets the edge. True, you might not get the blade finished as nice as it is now but this knife is expendable. It's your first knife (or even second or third) so you shouldn't worry as much about the fine details of finish work or fancy materials until you know you can make a functional knife. So, re-grind so that the edge measures about .030 all along the blade and then re-sharpen it. You may still have trouble getting rid of that pesky wire but I bet the knife will seem a lot sharper...


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!






Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-27-2012, 05:30 PM
cedarfluteman cedarfluteman is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Norwalk, Ohio
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
Nice looking knife overall. I appears that the problem with sharpening will be partly related to the way your hollow grind was done. It seems to be a nice grind but the arc of the grind did not meet the edge of the blade. That means there is a very thick section directly behind the edge with the hollow grind sitting on top of it. So, it is as if you were sharpening a blade with a very thick edge and that's not good geometry for a small knife like that.

I would suggest that you first dull that edge real well and the re-grind the hollow so that it meets the edge. True, you might not get the blade finished as nice as it is now but this knife is expendable. It's your first knife (or even second or third) so you shouldn't worry as much about the fine details of finish work or fancy materials until you know you can make a functional knife. So, re-grind so that the edge measures about .030 all along the blade and then re-sharpen it. You may still have trouble getting rid of that pesky wire but I bet the knife will seem a lot sharper...
When I say it don't get as sharp as I would like it. I can get the blade sharp enough to shave the hair on your arm but it just don't feel sharp when you run your finger across it. It just don't seem to want to bit. Does this make sense? Just thought I would add this and get your opinion before I start grinding on it again.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-27-2012, 06:11 PM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 9,840
Yes, that makes sense. You are describing an edge with a very wide angle. Edges like this are used on camp knives and other large choppers because it is very hard to damage such an edge. They seem sharp in that they can shave hair or slice paper - and, in fact, they are sharp - but due to their geometry they aren't much good at slicing deeply. For that, you need a thinner edge along the lines of a shaving razor. A razor is too thin for a knife but I mean the way that deep hollow grind comes all the way down to the edge.

If you do get that edge reshaped and sharp you aren't going to want to be running your finger across it. The edge of a knife should never touch anything you don't want to cut. If you must use your fingers to test an edge then REST the edge at about a 30 degree angle on your thumb nail - if it bites in and refuses to slide off, it's sharp. Note that I didn't say anything about slicing on your thumbnail, I said rest it on your nail. Don't screw that up ....


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!






Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-27-2012, 06:12 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
Hall of Famer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 2,612
Get some fiberous rope like hemp, manilla, or scessle and see how may cuts you can make before it stops wanting to cut well. You could be looking at a geometry problem as Ray said.

Doug


__________________
If you're not making mistakes then you're not trying hard enough
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-27-2012, 07:54 PM
cedarfluteman cedarfluteman is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Norwalk, Ohio
Posts: 45
OK I will thin that edge down and see what happens? I'll let you know that works out for me.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-29-2012, 06:56 PM
cedarfluteman cedarfluteman is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Norwalk, Ohio
Posts: 45
Well I took the edge down to the thickness of a credit card and then tried the sharpening. It did get sharper but I'm not sure how well I got the thing hardened and tempered. This will be a test knife I guess and will see how good it holds up.
Thanks to all who tried to educate me. I will try another knife soon and see if it comes out better. I will try to heat treat and temper it also. Question about the heat treating, in my gas forge should I try to find a pipe to put in the forge and then put the knife inside the pipe. That way the flames are not directly on the blade or don't that matter? And does the whole knife have to turn red handle and all or is just the blade good enough?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-29-2012, 07:15 PM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 9,840
You can use the pipe if your forge is hot enough. Some people like to cap one end of the pipe and put a couple of small wood chips in there. The smoke from the chips keeps the air off the blade and prevents some of the scale formation.

The blade is the part you're hardening, the handle you do or don't according to how you feel about it.

That last knife was a test knife you said. So is this next one, and the one after that. Make them simple, make them as fast as you can and try to be consistent with your HT process. Use simple plain wood handles and test each knife thoroughly. After you have a winner, then and only then begin to concern yourself with making the knife pretty ....

PS

If you do decide you use a piece of pipe make sure it is black pipe, not galvanized. The galvanized stuff will burn off extremely toxic fumes that you do not want to be breathing....


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!







Last edited by Ray Rogers; 01-29-2012 at 08:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-29-2012, 10:01 PM
cedarfluteman cedarfluteman is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Norwalk, Ohio
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
If you do decide you use a piece of pipe make sure it is black pipe, not galvanized. The galvanized stuff will burn off extremely toxic fumes that you do not want to be breathing....
Thanks for the heads up on the galvanized pipe. I got another knife profiled and ready to heat treat in the morning. I had a belt break and come out of my sander. It hit me in the chest and scared the crap out of me.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-30-2012, 12:31 PM
cedarfluteman cedarfluteman is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Norwalk, Ohio
Posts: 45
Well I got a 2" piece of black pipe and my forge gets it red hot and the knife inside gets a nice orange/red and non magnetic. I put it back in for a while and made sure the color was all through the blade real good. I took it out and put it in the warm old motor oil to quench it. The file test? It does still bite a little? Not like running it across glass. So I put the knife back in and didn't use the pipe this time. I got it as hot as I could with the forge and made sure it was a nice even orange /red and put it in the oil. File still seems to bite a little. Would be hard to sharpen the knife with the file but it does cut some. Is this good enouth for this type of metal ( 1084 ) or do I need to do something else? Like quench in water?

Last edited by cedarfluteman; 01-30-2012 at 12:55 PM. Reason: forgot something
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-30-2012, 01:02 PM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 9,840
I'm seeing where you get the metal to non-magnetic but after that it seems you put the steel back in the forge for a long time (meaning more than 30 - 60 seconds) and then quench but no mention of how long it takes to get from the forge to the oil. All these things are important.

Remember that you want the steel about 50F above non-magnetic when you pull it out of the forge with the intention of quenching the blade. The blade definitely should not be more than 150F beyond non-magnetic. The reason for this temperature above non-magnetic is two-fold: 1) that's closer to where it needs to be to quench and 2) the time it takes to move the blade from the forge into the oil is enough time for the heat to drop 50F easily and you don't want to be below non-mag when you quench. So, what all that means is you have to practice taking the blade out of the forge, checking for non-mag, putting it back in the forge until it just reaches non-mag and getting it out again. This takes practice to figure out how long is long enough and no more. You can't just put it back and wait for the color to even out or you'll be way too hot.

You're probably very close, maybe even good enough. A fresh file will always bite a little. Temper that blade and then test it according to all the suggestions in the earlier postings. If the blade performs to your satisfaction then that is how you'll know if it's good enough or not. Later, after you've had a chance to compare it to other 1084 knives from other makers or even your later work your concept of what is 'good enough' may change but for now I'd finish the knife and test it to destruction ....


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!






Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-30-2012, 01:08 PM
Eli Jensen's Avatar
Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Posts: 872
Just a tip, make sure when you quench, your not running the bottom of the blade on the bottom of your pan or quench tank, especially if you are edge quenching. I was doing this on my last HT and the file slid like off glass except for the inch where I ran it along the bottom, that are was not hard. After three times of doing this I finally figured it out. Also another reason to file test the entire edge.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-31-2012, 04:14 PM
cedarfluteman cedarfluteman is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Norwalk, Ohio
Posts: 45
Well I think this one will make into a knife. I knew that the steel had to get to non magnetic but I didn't know it needed to be very close to that temp. when it gets quenched. Now when I do this again on my next one the tip of the knife tends to get hotter quicker than the hilt. Is there a way to control this so the tip don't get hotter than the rest of the knife?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
art, blade, camp knife, camp knives, damascus, forge, forging, grinding, hammer, handle, heat treat, hunting, knife, knife making, knifemaking, knives, post, sharpening, skinning, tang


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Heat treating ATS-34 pjelect Heat Treating and Metallurgy 4 12-12-2004 10:58 AM
Heat treating A2 YAMAMA The Newbies Arena 2 11-30-2003 11:48 PM
Who is the best for Heat treating 0 1? Beartracker The Newbies Arena 6 11-20-2003 09:22 PM
Heat tret prep for a small knife Daniel J High-Performance Blades 6 10-07-2002 07:15 PM
Tempering, Heat Treating, Cryo-Treating 5160? nosborn The Newbies Arena 1 02-22-2002 12:41 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:48 AM.




KNIFENETWORK.COM
Copyright © 2000
? CKK Industries, Inc. ? All Rights Reserved
Powered by ...

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
The Knife Network : All Rights Reserved