the near mythical p-p-patina on display!

[Alan L]

Back on the old site there was some question of whether I had, in fact, used urine to patinate a blade. Since the new site has a gallery photo hosting feature, I posted a picture of what it looks like! For the record, I think Chuck's aging method looks a whole lot better.

The pic is on the gallery page at the top of the forum index. I also posted a pipe hawk and a trade knife to prove that I do actually make things. One of these days I'll get a website again and will post pics within the posts like the rest of you guys.

[cwp]

Alan,

I posted pics in the message by using the properties from the gallery and cutting the http for the image from there. This seems to work fine.

--Carl

[Alan L]

DOH! It boggles the mind how I can be a smarta$$ and a dumba$$ at the same time...

http://knifenetwork.com/ppost/showphoto.php?photo=44

Thanks, Carl!

Hmmm.... I can link it, but if if I try to do a straight img code I get the dreaded red x...

I guess I'll stick with being on the dumb side of things for a while yet.

[Chuck Burrows]

There you go Alan -

[hammerdownnow]

Thats not the one you and I made at Harley's is it? I like that finish. Nice, smooth and even. Reminds me of the shade of black you get from useing Elk horn Sumach berries.

That pipe hawk is outstanding! There is nothing I have seen that comes close to bringing out the luster of maple like your method. Cool inlay, I bet that it is really nice to see in person. Sweet belt knife also!

[Alan L]

Thanks, Chuck! I guess I'm still just a dumb smarta$$!

Roc, that's not the same axe, but as you could tell I've made a few of 'em! It's not really that smooth. It feels like a rusty piece of steel, but the color doesn't rub off on your fingers. The guy who bought three of them like that aged the handles and added them to some aged hunting bags he made. I saw one a couple months ago and had to look twice to see if it was an original!

That pipe hawk handle is curly ash, which also really likes the acid stain. I didn't do anything to the knife handle except oil it. That was a nice piece of maple!

[Chuck Burrows]

Alan - have you tried any of Eric Kettenburg's PC oil Varnish? I made up a variation using pinon pitch and really like it. It's what I used on the recent pipe hawk I handled.

On the steel patina at the end I first scrub down with 4/0 steel wool (after using a brillo pad to "kill" the etch - they have tsp in them) I then use a fine Scotchbrite type pad and scrub down almost to bare metal - then oil.

[Alan L]

No, but I'd like to. I generally use modern boiled linseed oil. I know a lot of folks have problems with it, but in my opinion that's because they are not applying it correctly. I would love to try the PC formulation. (note to the confused: PC as in period correct, not the other PC!)

I have also done a couple in french-polished shellac made from dry seedlac grains dissolved in moonshine, which makes a gorgeous shine. It's not water resistant, though, so the varnish would certainly be better there.

[Chuck Burrows]

I generally use modern boiled linseed oil. I know a lot of folks have problems with it, but in my opinion that's because they are not applying it correctly.

Agreed - wholeheartedly - I think the major problem is most people put it on straight and too heavily (IME it helps to thin it at first at least with turpentine) and even more important they are too impatient - again IME you should wait at least 24 hours before coats and it takes several coats.
For more on Linseed Oil finishes see - http://www.ilovewood.com/alburnam3.htm#TradOil - scroll down to item #95
BTW - go to this sites index - an amazing amount of info there - http://www.ilovewood.com/Alburnam.htm

For Eric Kettenburg's Traditional Varnish article with recipes see: http://www.muzzleblasts.com/vol5no2/...es/mbo52-1.htm
The problem with Eric's recipes are they use toxic materials (lead dryers, etc) and it can be VERY messy so BE CAREFUL! if you decide to try them.

With all that said I "think" I may have a solution - Tried & True Wood Finishes - http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/products.htm

They not only make a non-toxic polymerized Linseed oil (they don't explain but I will bet the polymerization is the traditional boiling - actually cooking it). And along with that they make a Varnish that is Linseed Oil based with the additions of resins which is effectively what EK's recipe does.
Jon Loose, whose opinion I HIGHLY respect, has used the T & T finishes and recommends them wholeheartedly.

[Alan L]

I've had those sites bookmarked for quite a while! I have also been looking at the T&T oil-based varnish, just because it sounds like it might work. Ever use Behlen's red oil violin varnish? That has tempted me as well.

[Chuck Burrows]

Howdy Alan - do you have a link to Behlen's? Sounds interesting.

Main thing for me is I already havea liver problem due to breathing and absorbing toxic chemicals so I am seriously searching for alternatives that are at least much less than things like petroleum distillates - besides the odor alone is terrible with such things!

[Alan L]

Chuck, here's a link to the PDF format catalog, which is the only place I see it now. They may have discontinued it. It's at the bottom of page 9. I also note they no longer use the phrase "red oil". Bugger.

http://www.woodfinishsupply.com/Behlen2002CatFall.pdf

The description sounds like one of EK's spirit varnishes.
I guess we'll have to make our own! When using alcohol-based finishes, I always use PGA or moonshine as the base alcohol, just to avoid the crap they put in denatured alcohol. I prefer my spirits unmetholated, thank you.

[Chuck Burrows]

Howdy Alan - Thanks for the link - does look that way. I prefer the oil varnishes anyway so I'm going to order some of the T & T oil and oil varnish and compare tehm to what I made based on EK's oil varnish. If they even come close and since they claim to be non-toxic I will be sold.

There are other suppliers of violin varnish though:

http://www.internationalluthiers.com/varnish.php - this site has them in colorless, red, yellow, & brown. Lots of other stuff as weel - including dyes - spirit, water, and oil soluble.

http://www.quinnviolins.com/qv_varnishingredients.shtml

re: Violin Varnish found this: http://www.briscdisc.co.za/VIOLINS/varnish1.html
THE VARNISH
The varnish consists of only three ingredients, all of which were readily available to the north Italian makers of the classical era: pine turpentine, Venetian turpentine and linseed oil. The natural colour of the varnish is amber. By means of colour glazing shades of orange, red and brown can be achieved.
The characteristics of the varnish, similar to that which can be seen on old classical instruments, are softness of texture, a very high degree of transparency, and dichroism: depending on the thickness of the varnish and the angle at which it is observed, two distinct colours are present: the so-called "ground yellow", and various shades of amber and red-brown.
Despite its softness, the varnish is tough and durable, does not chip or crack, and if scratched does not produce the white marks so characteristic of modern instruments. It is not affected by either acid or alkali.
The basis of the varnish is pine turpentine, the processing of which yields terpene resin. Unlike the acidic rosin (colophony) which, together with turpentine, is produced by the distillation of pine gum, terpene resin is chemically neutral.

THE METHOD OF APPLICATION
The violin is first sun-browned. It is then rubbed with a paste of beeswax and oxidized pine turpentine. After a drying period the instrument is sealed with "vernice bianca" (a sealer used by painters and instrument makers in the 16th and 17th centuries), followed by the application of the varnish itself. This involves four coats of the varnish, with the colour glazing following the second coating.

[Alan L]

Thanks, Chuck!

As long as you're sending such good info, I'll add this tidbit given me by Richard Mize, a.k.a. foxcreek, on how to refine linseed oil. Richard doesn't like to let on, but he has a background in fine arts and jewelry, which helps explain why his stuff looks so darn good:

First, you need a glass funnel with a stopcock, available from lab glass suppliers. In a large jar, put hardware store linseed oil and mix with distilled water as though you're making salad dressing. After you have things thoroughly shaken up into a nice cloudy suspension, pour it in the funnel. The oil and water will separate, and the water will take much in the way of waxes and other googe out of the oil. Use the stopcock to pull the oil from the bottom, and discard the watery spooge. Repeat until no more bizarre stuff comes out in the water. Apparently, this is one way the old artists refined their raw linseed oil before grinding with pigment. I have tried this without the stopcock arrangement, just pouring off the watery gunge, and it does make for a better oil. I would like to have all the lab glass though, it'd make me feel like an alchemist!

I do like the old finishes, but if you have as good luck with the T&T varnish oil as you have with your other relatively non-toxic chemisty tricks, I'm sold too.

[Chuck Burrows]

Yep that is an old artists trick - I used to paint (canvases never did get the hang of painting houses - interior or exterior ) and when I couldn't get artist grade or was too cheap - I'd do the oil and water trick.
I actually worked as a woodworker for years - started out building fine furniture and cabinetry, "degressed" to building houses, and then log cabins, and finally wound up being a timber beast - a tree faller in the Pacific Northwest! LOL! always was contrary to ordinary. So I've always had an affinity for fine wood and do love the old ways best - there is nothing IMO better than a well done oil finish to bring out the beauty in a fine piece of wood.

As above a much finer grades of linseed oil is available from art supply houses and an even finer grade is available from health food stores in the from of Flax Seed oil - but neither are cheap, so the T & T is definitely on my list.

Want to try that old violin varnish with nothing but the two grades of turpentine and linseed oil. In fact that is basically what the very old and traditional finish for oil paints is so I'll definitely be giving it a shot as well.