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Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith. |
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#1
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The 5160 "How I do it" Thread
OK folks...here it is...a place for folks to talk about 5160 and their methods for heat treating it. Lets keep this one restricted to 5160 so the waters don't get too muddy.
All I ask is that everyone be civil. I use a few different methods for 5160, based on the intended function of the blade. The method that I recommend for passing your JS test is contained here: http://www.caffreyknives.net/journeymanarticle.html I'll get into my other methods as others come on board and post their inputs. GO! __________________ WWW.CAFFREYKNIVES.NET Caffreyknives@gmail.com "Every CHOICE has a CONSEQUENCE, and all your CONSEQUENCES are a result of your CHOICES." |
#2
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Hey Ed,
Just read your article on passing the journeyman's test. Great! Well written, clear instructions and explanations. I do have a couple of questions. First, have you tried a deferential quench using clay and an oven instead of a torch? If so, what problems did you find that would effect a test? And second, you describe reducing the forging heat as you approach a finished blade. I take that what you mean by that is, by the time you are getting the finished taper on the blade you're only heating the portion you're forging to a dull red before you pull it out to pound it. Is that right? Do you do the thick portions and shaping first and then not reheat those portions until you do the normalizing process? Again, great article. Last edited by chiger; 09-17-2008 at 10:41 AM. |
#3
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I promise I'll jump in here as soon as I can take a little time and get started.
This could be a looooooooooooooooooooooooong thread! We'll all have Ed to either "thank" or "blame" when it's all over! __________________ Blade Show Table 8-Q What do you do when you see your ex in pain, limping and bleeding? Relax. Take a deep breath. Reload and then shoot again. http://www.andersenforge.com/ |
#4
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Ed the link was dead for me.I love 5160 for big choppers,swords,and other large users.I like to austemper them at 480f.I use a low temp salt tank.First I normalize a few times taking loweer and lower heats,then up to temp and quench directly into the salts.The process makes for some tough blades.Do you know if 5160 takes a marquench well?I thought a marquench might work well for smaller fighters and such.
__________________ N'T McAhron Sqwaukin Vulture Verrinder "to create is to make art" TREMBLING EARTH KNIFE WORKS |
#5
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Here's a little info that sort of comes to a knife maker over time, meaning, when many of us start, we simply take a piece of steel and begin banging on it with little attention to those things that we just haven't learned yet!
Then, when we get the idea that we like this stuff, we go to another maker's shop or start reading these darned forums, etc., and start connecting dot! One of the first things to learn is that from the very first step, the entire knife making process that includes forge, hammer and anvil, is one looooooooooooooooooong heat treating process! I emphasize this in reference to the comment above about "reducing heats". I hope the thread goes for a long time, because it opens the door to a lot of aspects regarding general heat treating and in reference to 5160 specifically. See if you can think about the forging process when I review a demonstration I saw one time: Don Fogg, (Double Master Smith!?) nevermind, took an old file at a hammer in and with a hammer, busted the end off on the anvil. Passed the file around and had every one look as best they could, at the fine grain structure on the broken end. Then, he placed the file in the forge and got it REALLY HOT and held it there for a while - a few minutes! While still WAAAAAAAY TOO HOT, he quenched it. Broke the end off. Passed it around again. The grain structure was visibly coarse and grainy! Then, he heated it up again to well past critical/non-magnetic. Just for a moment or two. Let it cool to black. Then, in what is called "reducing heats", heated it up again to non/magnetic, but visibly NOT AS HOT as the first time. Let it cool to black. Then a third time, but NOT AS HOT as the second time, yet still non/magnetic. Three reducing heat thermal cycles. Then, heated it up to an even non/magnetic, and quenched it! Broke the end off, and the grain was back to where it started! Nice and fine and even. I guess my point here is, that to get the most out of your steel, you can't just simply get it hot, bang it around, and quench it! There is always something going on inside that steel when we intropduce heat and hammers to it! Every step affects the following steps! There are some real world steps and quidelines that a person needs to follow to get the best out of the steels we use. I use a single industry standard spherodizing sub-critical anneal on my 5160 following the forging process. I'll go over the forging and normalizing steps I do in a follow-up thread, but I mention the sub-critical anneal step to illustrate that I use industry "stuff" as well as simple knifemaking"stuff" that applies to us knife makers. I'm going to give my fingers a rest here while someone else begins their own input. __________________ Blade Show Table 8-Q What do you do when you see your ex in pain, limping and bleeding? Relax. Take a deep breath. Reload and then shoot again. http://www.andersenforge.com/ Last edited by Karl B. Andersen; 09-17-2008 at 06:32 PM. |
#6
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Thanks Ed,
I'm glad you decided to do this. At the risk of getting hollered at, I use OTS (old truck spring) steel for my knives and treat it like 5160. I know, I know...known steel... I have been very happy with my results as have my customers. Anyway, I am really looking forward to picking up some additional insight on heat treating and forging in general from you and Karl and I'm sure a number of other very capable knife makers. I hope I might be able to add a little to the knowledge base. Thanks again, Carey __________________ Everything you do says something about who and what you are so ALWAYS sign your work with excellence. You are cordially invited to check out my web site: Handmade Knives by Carey Quinn |
#7
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Thank-you Ed. Good info.
This would make a great step by step video.(I'd buy it) I just watched your Basic forgeing video today for the ???hundreth time I keep a copy at work and watch it whenever I get bored. Note: I've picked up something every time. |
#8
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Thanks for the thread idea. Pullin' up a seat and eager to learn.
The newby few that I've done so far have been forge heated to nonmagnetic to normalize times three. Then, held at critical for about a minute and full quenched in a slow oil, most recently Parks AAA. Not too adventurous and looking towards better temp controls down the road. Would anyone mind commenting on normalizing from nonmagnetic vs. sub critical (dull red heat) normalizing cycles? I've seen both 'work'. Curious about grain refinement and stress relief differences. Thanks much, Craig |
#9
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Hey Karl,
Thanks for chiming in. Great information. I kind of understand about how heat effects grain structure. What I'm try to pick Ed's or anyone else's brain about is the physical process. The visual cues used to know your doing it right, that sort of thing. Any input that puts me on the path to the Caffrey way will be appreciated. Craig, I don't think you can actually get a complete stress relief and normalizing unless the temp is taken to critical or nonmagnetic. Then cooled. You have to speed all the little atoms up till the loose molecular cohesion or some such thing so they can relax and refine. It's been like 30 years since I was working with this stuff and I was no expert then, that's what we had Tooling Engineers/Metallurgist for, so take that with a grain of salt until some of the other guys confirm it. chiger |
#10
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There are two things I see missing in all the above. 5160 needs to be around 1500?, for the quench, give, or take a bit. Not just simply be non-magnetic. It also needs to soak at this temp for 8, to 10 minutes in order to form a good austenite solution. This just does not happen when held at critical heat for one minute. Critical heat only tells you that you have reached the beginning of austenite formation, and you need to go 75?, to 100? higher, then hold long enough for the carbon, and chrome to disperse evenly. Grain growth at this heat, and time is insignificant due to the chrome keeping it in check. If your goal is to pass the ABS testing, then Ed's method is definately the way to go. If your goal is to get the best from your 5160 blade, then it needs the above. There are various tempers that can be done afterwards, but first, you must have a good base to work from, if you want to get the best from your steel.
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#11
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Well, a magnet is a physical thing. Use that.
As well as that "shadow" of decalescence. When I do my first normalizing cycle, I get the shadow COMPLETELY GONE and then even just a shade above that for only a second or two. Then, the second cycle, I get it up to where the shadow is JUST GONE and stop. Then on the third, I take it up to where there is still some residual shadow, yet it's still non-magnetic. This is something that I might mention - I don't use any "bar stock". My 5160 is reduced from 1" thick. I remember a little story Ed Fowler related one time when he was forging all of his blades from 52100 ball bearings. Some people will say that it doesn't matter, but I think they just have ego problems. Ed noticed differences in cutting/edge retention of some of his blades! He went back and looked at his notes and discovered a few things. Some of his blades were forged from 1 1/2" ball bearings, and some were forged from 2" ball bearing. With ALL THINGS being the same, the only difference was the AMOUNT OF REDUCTION/forging time. He then did tests. What he noticed was that he NEVER had a knife that was forged from the 1 1/2" ball bearings out-cut one forged from a 2"-er. Conversely, he frequently had a knife forged from a 2" ball bearing out-cut the ones forged from 1 1/2" bearings. So, I have made it my goal to always froge my knives from the largest stock I can find. That's just me. Take from that what you will. As of today, Fowler is forging his knives from 5" stock. His blades get more that 1000 cuts through manila rope!!! Here's a physical thing for you to look at and that is the size of your scale when you are forging. You don't wnat great big flakes of steel on your anvil. Maybe only at the beginning, if you are doing large stock reduction. If not, then you just want your scale size to be almost like powder. Maybe some chucky stuff at the beginning, but as you near completion of your forging, leave your steel in the forge for a shorter period of time, and watch your scale size! You want it small. That blade is getting thinner and thinner! It doesn't take much to heat it up. I even turn my air and fuel down so the forge isn't raging hot anymore. Don't forget to try to keep the amount of forging as equal as possible from side to side. Now, some people will say that if you have un-equal forging, it might relate into warpage. I agree! So, for those who say that by normalizing ALL THINGS GO BACK TO NORMAL, this just doesn't hold water, does it? My point is, that what happnes on that anvil affects how that blade will behave!! I even do some other stuff right after forging, but I'll relate that in another post. __________________ Blade Show Table 8-Q What do you do when you see your ex in pain, limping and bleeding? Relax. Take a deep breath. Reload and then shoot again. http://www.andersenforge.com/ |
#12
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I belong to a local group that has a "Bowie Knife Competition" every May. I have been making mine of 5160 the past two years. I heat treat pretty much like Ed says, plus it is also close to how Jim Crowell taught in my class at Old Washington. Part of our competition is chopping a really hard 1x2, slicing paper from one end to the other with one motion, cutting rope with one cut, slicing a water bottle (we used 3 liter bottles last year) dropping the knife to stick the point in wood. At the end we cut the water bottle again. So far none of my knifes have chipped, bent, or rolled the edge and still will shave hair. So I woiuld not be afraid to take those knives anywhere.
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#13
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Quote:
Absolutely. When I do fighter and bowie sized blades, the get soaked in a 1525 degree oven for 20 minutes prior to quenching. Smaller sized blades can be controlled a little better with a torch and are "held" at critical with the torch for a few minutes prior to quenching. This is also one of the reasons for the "triple quench"! Both 5160 and 52100, because of their chromium content, benefit from the repeated pulling of the chromium and carbon into solution that just simply won't happen in one go'round. __________________ Blade Show Table 8-Q What do you do when you see your ex in pain, limping and bleeding? Relax. Take a deep breath. Reload and then shoot again. http://www.andersenforge.com/ |
#14
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Still hoping someone will charm in on marquenching.
__________________ N'T McAhron Sqwaukin Vulture Verrinder "to create is to make art" TREMBLING EARTH KNIFE WORKS |
#15
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Now that's what I'm talking about Karl! These are the kinds of things I can relate to my self taught methods. The visual cues of scale shadow is something I can definitely apply. So is scale size. I actually, accidentally got that one right on the one and only knife I've forged. It just kind of seemed right somehow. Hey, even a blind hog can find an acorn every now and then. ;~)
The deal with the 2" vs 1" bearings is very interesting. I've got some 5160, but it's flat bar. Now I'm wondering if I need to get some square or round bar instead. Do you think the increased performance is a function of the thickness or just because of more heat and hammer cycles? I mean, since I'll only be forging my second knife I'll bet there are going to be a few extra cycles involved anyway. Can't wait to hear anything else you can think of as well as you post forge tricks. Thanks a lot Karl! chiger, |
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blade, forge, forging, knife, knife making, knives |
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