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The Newbies Arena New to Knife Making? Here's all the help you need ...

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  #1  
Old 06-08-2017, 01:56 PM
Sawdusthappy Sawdusthappy is offline
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1080 & 1084 are out. Need another begginer steel recomendation please!

Hey All,
So my local metal supplier has informed me that my 1084 orser has gone MIA, with no chance of replacement. They can order me some 1080, but it will be 3 weeks before delivery. Any other begginer steels I can use & heat treat at home you recommend?

I have been watching and rewatching Ray's build a forge video, and will try and build it this weekend. But I need a good steel to start on. I have some 1095, but have been told the heat treat on that is very tricky for a beginner.

Thank you all again for your help!
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  #2  
Old 06-08-2017, 02:05 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Have you looked at The New Jersey Steel Baron? He can probably get steel to you in less than three weeks. I think that he has 1084 and 80CrV2, that's 1080 with a little chromium far added hardenability and a little vanadium to pin grain size. He also carries 1070 which is a shallow hardening steel.

Doug


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  #3  
Old 06-08-2017, 02:13 PM
Sawdusthappy Sawdusthappy is offline
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The NJSB carries 1084. And I want to order a few pieces. But the thicknesses are in decimals. Basic math says the 0.125 is 1/8 of an inch. And appears to be the thinnest stock. Is that a good thickness to make some beginner parrying knives and coupons for learning to heat treat?

Thanks!

Last edited by Sawdusthappy; 06-08-2017 at 02:22 PM.
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  #4  
Old 06-08-2017, 04:03 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Ya, .125 would be fine, a little thick for paring knives but you can grind it down. It would probably be too thin for forging but you're not planning to forge the blade as far as I know.

If you can't get 1080 or 1084 fas enough to suit you then get some O1. It will be more expensive and you won't be able to heat treat it to its best performance but it is easy to use and any half way decent HT will result is a decent blade ....


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  #5  
Old 06-08-2017, 04:31 PM
KevBooth KevBooth is offline
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You could also try Alpha Knife Supply. Just got some 1084 from them, only took 4 days.
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  #6  
Old 06-08-2017, 05:14 PM
Sawdusthappy Sawdusthappy is offline
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I will look into 01. If they have that in stock I will pick some up. If not I will order some 1084. Thanks for the help guys!

Last edited by Sawdusthappy; 06-08-2017 at 08:55 PM.
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  #7  
Old 06-08-2017, 07:01 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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I buy my O1 from Sheffield Knife supply from shear sheet. They only take orders over the phone, they have 1084 too. O1 from sheet is a WHOLE lot cheaper than precision ground.


http://www.sheffieldsupply.com/SUPPLYCAT.pdf

For some reason the link doesn't work, their phone is 800 874 7007


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Last edited by jimmontg; 06-08-2017 at 07:07 PM.
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  #8  
Old 06-08-2017, 08:56 PM
Sawdusthappy Sawdusthappy is offline
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I will talk to metal supermarkets tomorrow morning. I want to support a loval business. But I have been very disappointed in them. If they dont have the 01, I will order online. They have pretty much lost my business. I will look elsewhere if I can get steel local
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  #9  
Old 06-09-2017, 06:14 AM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Ed O1 comes different ways, the most expensive is precision ground. As Knifemakers we do not need that. Use bar stock or sheared sheet. The sheet metal will need a little checking and straightening first. I know Sheffield's has it and NJSB has bar stock. that is what you want. Forget the precision ground stuff, you're grinding it to size anyway and using a forge to boot.


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  #10  
Old 06-09-2017, 07:36 AM
WBE WBE is offline
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For precision ground 01 check these prices. http://websales.amtektool.com/viewit...oil-hardening?

As knife makers we do not need that?? Why would you say that? PG 01 comes already prepped and grain refined for HT. If you are going to forge it, then no, you don't need it. If for stock removal, it is a very good choice saving both time and effort by not having to do the normalizing and grain reduction before HT. I live close to Sheffields and buy some supplies from them. I have never known them to offer 01 in any form other than PG or round bar. Is sheet 01 something new from them?
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  #11  
Old 06-09-2017, 12:18 PM
samuraistuart samuraistuart is offline
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PG01 is indeed VERY nice to have. Beginners making their first knives, it's not so important. Once you've gotten a few under the belt and a feel for knife making, having PG stock is awesome. Especially if you're making folding pocket knives, then it's well worth the extra money. I don't know that being precision ground says anything at ALL about how well the mill rolled the steel out, tho (carbide distribution and grain refinement). It's just been ground to tight tolerances. There are a few O1 variants out there. Sheffield is what I look for. It has the vanadium. Some stock houses that sell O1 do not have the vanadium in the chemical composition. I will only buy O1 with vanadium. With that said, there is a lot of talk about normalizing and thermal cycling steels that isn't founded. Unless the mill totally screwed up the steel (never really heard of that) the only time you would need to normalize and thermal cycle a steel is if it has been forged, or if it has been heavily spheroidized (annealed) from the mill. O1 most always comes fine spheroidized, and is ready to harden as received. I've never heard of O1 needing normalizing unless it was forged. Normalizing breaks up carbide networks that have clumped together and distributes those carbides evenly. This "possibly" can be at the expense of aus grain growth, thus thermal cycling to "shrink" aus grain is done after normalizing. The 2 operations do 2 different things.

I'm pretty sure Aldo (New Jersey Steel) does have the 1/8" 1084 (yes...that's .125" and will be received probably slightly oversized as in .135" unless it is PG) and is THE "beginner's" steel of choice. Not because it is a "beginner" steel, but is very forgiving in heat treat and will steel give an excellent blade.***

O1 was given as another option if 1080/1084 can't be found. Ray mentioned that if you don't have tight control over hardening temperature (1475F), and ability to soak (10 minutes), the performance that O1 offers will be lost. If I couldn't get 1084, my next option would be 80CrV2 (1080+). It is available from both Aldo and Alpha Knife Supply. It is basically 1080 Cro Van. VERY forgiving in hardening temperature, doesn't need a fast oil quench like 1095 or W2. You can use a high hardening temperature with little to no soak and not worry about grain growth because of the vanadium present (1525F-1550F), but my opinion is the best HT for that steel is in the 1475F-1500F range with a 10 minute soak.

So to sum up:
1. 1084
2. 1080
3. 1080+
4. O1

***I haven't used the 1084 from Aldo in quite some time. Generally his carbon steels come heavily spheroidized from the mill, and MIGHT require normalizing/cycling to free up that carbon. Steels from Alpha Knife are fine spheroidized from the mill, and do not need these extra steps.

I apologize to the OP for getting technical and putting out a lot of information. Get you some 1084, and if not, 1080 or 1080+. Heat that dude up to ~1500F and quench it in 130F canola oil. Temper 2 times, 1 hour each, and you should have a good heat treat.

Last edited by samuraistuart; 06-09-2017 at 12:31 PM.
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  #12  
Old 06-09-2017, 02:42 PM
WBE WBE is offline
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Well Stuart, I don't know how well the mill actually rolls the 01, but I have never found a test piece of any PG01 to have less than text book perfect appearing grain size, so I assume it has been prepped to be in its best condition for machining and HT, and I do not believe it came from the rollers in that condition. I said it was a good choice for stock removal as is unless it is forged. I only buy it with vanadium also, but Sheffield is not the only brand that has vanadium. Starrett is also an excellent brand. It is rare these days to find 01 without vanadium being listed in it. Years ago, on occasion, I would see a listing on some particular brand of 01 that did not mention vanadium, only later to find the same 01 listed elsewhere as having it. I may be wrong, but I believe if you will research 01, you will find that vanadium is and always was part of any recipe for 01, or it just is not 01. Maybe not, but maybe so.
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  #13  
Old 06-10-2017, 12:38 AM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Sheffield has sheared sheet O1 on page 6 of their catalogue.

At the bottom of the page it is .120-.132 thick, just above it they have it in hot roll bar stock 3/16 and 1/4 inch. On page 9 they offer D2 in HR bar stock as well as annealed sheet. It all comes annealed and there is nothing wrong with it. They offer 1080 bar stock as well plus 440C HR bar stock. Indeed they offer many metals in sheet or bar stock even S35VN.

There is a good reason I do not use PG bar stock and it has to do with how was it ground and did it hide any possible small warp. Besides the cost which is considerably more for PG you have to wonder about the stock it was made from, FYI it was made from barstock and or sheared sheet. It is usually PG from thick bar stock and nothing special about it. It is all annealed so you don't need to mess with that as Stuart said. I got that directly from the horse's mouth, Cincinnati Tool Steel Co. Call them if you want, they have several locations and don't get excited about the L6 they offer as it comes in 3/8 and 1/2 inch plate but they will shear it for you if you intend to forge it. They will grind it for you as well, but it stops being cheap. If you order tool steel from most knife suppliers it probably came from CTSC. They list the elemental analysis of all their tool steels. A lot of the sizes they carry are a forger's dream size and 1 inch round stock. They are the only supplier of W2 in the country btw.


http://www.cintool.com/page.asp?PageID=13

Who sells O1 without vanadium Stuart? I've seen Jantz supply not list the tungsten, but always the vanadium. I called them and it's a mistake, their O1 has everything it's supposed too.

Last edited by jimmontg; 06-10-2017 at 12:45 AM.
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  #14  
Old 06-10-2017, 08:03 AM
WBE WBE is offline
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My catalog does not show that, but it is old. Hidden small warp? What in he world are you talking about? Why would I wonder about the stock it was made from? PG01 is made from thick bar stock? Of course it is. Yes, it is special when it's precision ground. It is special compared to rough bar stock when a person would prefer PG! You learned that it was annealed from the horses mouth? Of course it is annealed. No one said that it wasn't. It is precision ground and spheroidized annealed. It is not going to be able to be mill ground otherwise. As far as extra cost, it isn't that much more to me when considered to time and belts saved, and that I can get just about any imaginable size I want, but each has to decide those values for themselves.
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  #15  
Old 06-10-2017, 12:50 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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I don't make folders, only ever made three.

No to me it isn't worth the extra $20+ more for an 36" piece of PG as I do not worry about how precise it is when I am going to grind it to whatever size I determine and I mostly now make hidden tangs so I don't need PG, also I have a disc grinder. Cincinnati Tool Steel sells most of the PG O1 in the country, They sell all kinds of PG tool steels.

As for hidden warp, they will make large 4" wide PG from sheared plate and it does have a small twist and that gets ground out. It may come out in HT. Hinderliter HT in OKC told me this years ago. I have had PG warp and guess what? it was a twist, not much, but it was there. So if your PG came from sheared plate, beware. It doesn't all come from bar except CTS probably.

I have this year's Sheffield catalogue, but their web page doesn't seem to be working at the moment. Leastways my link doesn't.

Not Authorized to View This Page [CFN #0004]

Is what I get. Any solutions?

Last edited by jimmontg; 06-10-2017 at 01:01 PM. Reason: spelling, addition
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