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  #1  
Old 05-06-2017, 11:20 PM
grampajack grampajack is offline
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Looking for info on Osoraku blades.

I'm hoping someone can school me on all the details regarding the osoraku tanto. I'm wanting to make a faithful copy of one and was particularly interested in the concept behind the compound bevel and how to accomplish it.
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  #2  
Old 05-07-2017, 09:19 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is online now
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Don't mean to be rude but I doubt many people will help you "make a faithfull copy" that guy put a lot of work into that knife I am sure....I wouldn't like it if I spent time designing something and had some one copy it (faithfull or not) sorry
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  #3  
Old 05-07-2017, 09:53 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I don't make Japanese swords so I can't speak with any authority as to the concept of that blade's grind. From looking at pictures on the internet I see what appears to be several variations of the osoraku design. The concept probably has some reasoning behind it or it may be nothing but a choice of appearance. One can imagine anything they want for their blade designs. I made some daggers with some similar design elements in that the blades were hollow ground but the tip was flat ground. My 'concept' on that was that the tip of a dagger is the weakest point and hollow grinding the tip only makes it weaker. Daggers don't cut well for several reasons but hollow grinding the edge improves the cutting ability. That was my rationale for the mix of hollow/falt grinds on my daggers. Perhaps some similar ideas are behind the osoraku designs I saw.

But, none of that matters. If that's what you want to make then make it whether you have scientific/practical or simply a fanciful reason to do it. The how part is simple if you know how to free hand grind. Once you know how you want the blade shaped you practice until you can get it that way. Without knowing anything about your knife making background that's about all anyone could tell you: practice free hand hollow grinding and flat grinding until you don't have to think about it any more. After that, you can shape an osoraku or any other blade that you can visualize ...


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Old 05-07-2017, 10:49 AM
grampajack grampajack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtec1 View Post
Don't mean to be rude but I doubt many people will help you "make a faithfull copy" that guy put a lot of work into that knife I am sure....I wouldn't like it if I spent time designing something and had some one copy it (faithfull or not) sorry
What the freak are you talking about??? Considering he's been dead for about a thousand years I really don't think he will mind. For that matter, I don't think the design can even be attributed to a single individual, or even a group of individuals for that matter. Considering it's just a tanto with a long kissaki I would imagine it sort of evolved over time with each swordmaker trying to outdo the other. I really don't see how it's any different than copying a katana or anything else. If you hold to some strange religious belief that only "samurai" should own such blades then I would respectfully suggest you go jump in a lake.

Geez Louise, I think there's more claim on the bowie knife and no one seems to have a problem with people copying those till kingdom come. At least we know who designed that one and he's not been dead for more than about two hundred years.

Last edited by grampajack; 05-07-2017 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 05-07-2017, 11:00 AM
grampajack grampajack is offline
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Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
I don't make Japanese swords so I can't speak with any authority as to the concept of that blade's grind. From looking at pictures on the internet I see what appears to be several variations of the osoraku design. The concept probably has some reasoning behind it or it may be nothing but a choice of appearance. One can imagine anything they want for their blade designs. I made some daggers with some similar design elements in that the blades were hollow ground but the tip was flat ground. My 'concept' on that was that the tip of a dagger is the weakest point and hollow grinding the tip only makes it weaker. Daggers don't cut well for several reasons but hollow grinding the edge improves the cutting ability. That was my rationale for the mix of hollow/falt grinds on my daggers. Perhaps some similar ideas are behind the osoraku designs I saw.

But, none of that matters. If that's what you want to make then make it whether you have scientific/practical or simply a fanciful reason to do it. The how part is simple if you know how to free hand grind. Once you know how you want the blade shaped you practice until you can get it that way. Without knowing anything about your knife making background that's about all anyone could tell you: practice free hand hollow grinding and flat grinding until you don't have to think about it any more. After that, you can shape an osoraku or any other blade that you can visualize ...
I just really love the shape and was curious about the engineering behind it. I was wondering if the grind towards the rear was at a different angle or what. I thought maybe the back portion was made to be sturdier for blocking and the front portion was ground thinner to cut deeper. I had never read anything about them being hollow ground though. Even if they were that's not something I want to get into. I'm mostly just interested in copying that distinctive geometrical bevel.

Is there any way to accomplish the bevel using a jig and belt sander? I'm trying to visualize how it would be done but I can't figure it out. I can't even figure out how to do it by hand.
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Old 05-07-2017, 01:10 PM
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All I can say for sure is that a quick look for that blade on the internet showed me a number of variations on it. One had a fuller, a couple had hollow ground portions but they all had that distinctive front and back portion you mentioned. I sure there is an 'expert' somewhere that can come up with reasons for the various characteristics of those blades but, again, that doesn't really matter (to me, anyway). If that's what you want to make then that's what you want to make, it's that simple.

Maybe that can be done with a jig and a belt sander. To get that noticeable grind demarcation in the middle of the blade would probably be a similar process to the one we use for the plunge cut that usually appears at the back of a blade. When you want that really sharp and defined we clamp a file guide across the blade, just two pieces of steel with a screw through each end, the blade goes between the screws. Simple. The forward part of the blade could even be tapered if you want, in some of the pictures that appeared to have been done. A thousand years ago, and doubtless much more recently than that, files or stones would have been used to shape the blade. Today we can use a belt sander but we don't have to, files still work fine. If you are having trouble conceptualizing how to produce the blade shape you want then doing it by hand with files is probably better. Things can get screwed up much faster with a belt sander....


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Old 05-07-2017, 01:14 PM
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PS

You still haven't said anything about your knife making background. If this blade is going to be anywhere near your first attempt at making a blade then the advice you should be receiving would be suggesting a considerably different path for you at this time ...


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Old 05-07-2017, 02:04 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is online now
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Ok first not to big on Japanese history to even know how long the guy is dead really it doesn't matter. Really if you want to make a similar design go for it if you want to do a similar grind go for it. Did I do that especially in the begining of cores I did! but when you say and I quote make a COPY that infers that you are not going to alter it at all to make it yours in any way you are simply making a duplicate. Unless my understanding of the English word COPY is wrong that's what it means. As I said I have looked at thousands of designs and yes many of them influenced my work one way or another but I always changed something to make it my own. If what you ment was your going to make a similar knife or that knife influenced a design you made I am with you 100%
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Old 05-07-2017, 04:45 PM
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It is clear to me that there is some misunderstanding going on here. That happens. Discussion of differing viewpoints is fine, always has been, always will be. But, let's not let this escalate. Make sure any further comments or discussion remain cordial and within our usual boundaries...


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Old 05-09-2017, 07:31 AM
WNC Goater WNC Goater is offline
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Oh come on Ray, I just got the popcorn popped.


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