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Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith.

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  #1  
Old 01-26-2009, 06:43 PM
wookie69 wookie69 is offline
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A few forge questions.........

hello ed....i had a few questions i hope you wouldn't mind helping me with.......i just got my first forge from darren ellis....it is a horizontal forge.....i am in the process of lining it with wool and covering it with satanite....i also would like to install a thermocouple to know if i am forging in the right temperature zone.....so i will type out my questions in a small list so it is easier to read....

1)does it matter if the inside of your forge ain't pretty? ...as long as all the wool is covered?

2)could u explain a little about running a rich or lean flame?.....and how does that effect your forging?

3)does it matter what psi you are running at?....when i turned it on i think i was around 8 to 10.....i have a 60 pound tank.....don't know if that matters?

4)are flames SUPPOSED to come out of the forge or be contained inside?

5) i have read you recommend thermocouples form omega.....anyone in particular...i am on a budget but by the same token i don't want one i have to replace soon


6)darren includes a small opening with a nipple threaded on for the thermocouple-do i drill ahole in it and leave the cap on for a tighter fit....does any wool go around the thermocouple at all......any clue about how far in it should go?


sorry for all the questions....i wanna do this the safe way and just wanna try and do it right the first time......i really appreciate all the info u provide here.....ryan
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  #2  
Old 01-26-2009, 08:12 PM
SIXFOOTER SIXFOOTER is offline
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I ain't Darren or Ed and am a new guy but can answer a couple of them:
1: Pretty does not matter
5: the thermocouple needs to match the controller your useing, most use a "K" type.
6: pack some satanite around the hole, key is no flow past the thermocouple.
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  #3  
Old 01-26-2009, 08:21 PM
wookie69 wookie69 is offline
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controler?....ok u just lost me.....i don't even relly know how they work.....the controller is the digital display box?.....ryan
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  #4  
Old 01-26-2009, 09:34 PM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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1. Not really...BUT! The smoother the interior is, the more efficient the forge will burn.

2. Rich or lean: A rich flame in also called a "carborizing" flame, which means you have more fuel inside the forge chamber than oxygen...which is generally the way you want to forge blades. A lean flame is known as "oxidizing", which means that you have more oxygen in the forge than fuel....this causes a lot of scale, and can be damaging to carbon and alloy steels.

3. yes, the psi must be adjusted to the individual forge. What you want to see is flame coming approx. 4-6" out the opening. This indicates that there is more fuel than oxygen....the combustion is consuming all of the oxygen inside the forge, and the remaining fuel is coming outside the forge, and using oxygen in the surrounding atmosphere for combustion.

4. Refer to #3

5. A thermocouple is only the "sensor" part of a pyrometer (pyrometer is just a fancy term for a high temp thermometer). I use the ones that are around $20 because until you spend $300+, they will burn out anyway over time.

6. Just drill a hole through the forge casing, and when you insert the thermocouple, gently push it through the kawool. You only need tohave about the first 1" of the thermocouple inside the forge, as thats where the reading part is. You don't really have to worry about ti being sealed in, it will only read on the first 1".


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  #5  
Old 01-26-2009, 09:50 PM
wookie69 wookie69 is offline
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ohh man...my interior is not smooth at all......that probably ain't good.....thanks for all the other advice.....is there a sweet spot as to where u place the thermometer?.....in relation to the burner i guess?......ryan

the hole he made for the thermometer is a few inches forward of where the burner goes in....ryan-thanks agian!
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  #6  
Old 01-26-2009, 10:22 PM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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I usually recommend putting the thermocouple near the back end of the forge, since thats were its the least likely to get banged around when your putting in, or taking out a piece of steel. Its also the location that is furthest away from the door/opening, which means you'll get a truer reading of the actual temps inside the forge.

Almost forgot.....its likely that it will work fairly well at almost any point, but DO NOT put it very near to, or directly in the path of the flame coming out of the burner!


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  #7  
Old 01-26-2009, 10:25 PM
wookie69 wookie69 is offline
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will do ed.....i will definately post some pics of my first finished blade here.....it'll be a while...still settin things up......thanks for the advice.....ryan
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  #8  
Old 02-09-2009, 05:03 PM
Doug Adams Doug Adams is offline
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Hello,
I am new to bladesmithing. I need help with knowing what the temps are in my forge. Where is a good place to buy a pyrometer and thermocouple. What brand and model do you recommend?
Thanks,
Doug
Jn. 3:16
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  #9  
Old 02-09-2009, 09:45 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Actually most of us do not measure the temperature of our forges, we just go by the color of the steel when forging or make sure that the steel is heated to non-magnetic for annealing, normalizing, and quenching. I might put a pyrometer back into one of my forges when I get back into forge welding just to make sure that I'm getting my forge hot enough. I have had two pyrometers. Both had K probes and I got them off Ebay but you might be able to find them at at pottery supply houses that sell kilns, which should be about all of them. You could also try MSC Direct. You should probably get one that measures over 2000 degrees just in case that you want to get into forge welding, which is about the only time you will need a temperature that high.

Doug Lester


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  #10  
Old 02-11-2009, 10:23 AM
wookie69 wookie69 is offline
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http://cgi.ebay.com/UNIVERSAL-PID-TE...1%7C240%3A1318


http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?r...v=tema07#order




hi ed-i am almost done lining my forge.....i did forget to make a hole fo rthe thermocouple but......i'm guessing i can poke a hole and patch around the thermocouple hole.....anyway i saw a post where u recommended the above for a forge.......i had a question.....

is it easy to wire for someone knowledgable to wiring-i have a friend who is really handy with electric wiring and the like-or is it difficult to install?

do i need anything else besides the controller and the probe to install it.....where do u put the box with the readout?.....does it just sit next to your forge?

this is a real stupid one-how does it work....does it run off of batteries?.....i really appreciate all the help.....i am excited to get my forge operational.....i'm gonna post a pic soon of it running




ohh one more thing-i have a venturi burner.....and there is a valve that opens the gas flow into the forge-i can light it by just turning the valve slightly and there is a blueish flame coming out a few inches from the forge.....if i turn it all the way on-the flame shoots out so far u can barely stand next to it.....is that normal to have such a large flame coming out.....hope that makes sense......ryan
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  #11  
Old 02-11-2009, 03:06 PM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Hi Ryan!

Yep, that the PID that I use for a pyrometer.

Its easy to wire....it runs on 110V, which means an old electric cord from a lamp, etc is all you need. 110V wires go to terminals 1 & 2.......they there are two terminals for the thermocouple....following the directions because thermocouple wires are specific to which terminal they go on. If it doesn't come with instructions, let me know, I think I have a computer file on that PID.

To mount the readout, I took a piece of thin sheet metal, cut out a hole of the correct size to fit the controller, and popped it in....I bent the top of the sheet metal and screwed it just under the front of my forge table....that way its protected from the heat and other stuff I'm slinging around while forging. The thermocouple wire should be long enough that you can string it under whatever table you have your forge on, and hook it to the PID. The power wire (110V) can go to the nearest plug in.
I'll get a pic or two and post them up later so you can see.


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  #12  
Old 02-11-2009, 04:08 PM
wookie69 wookie69 is offline
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thanks alot ed.....i would really appreciate a picture....i am probably gonna have a pic of my forge later tonight so i will share for sure.....ryan

p.s.-i can't wait to know enough to offer advice-you really don't realize ho wmany people u help....ryan
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  #13  
Old 02-11-2009, 06:16 PM
wookie69 wookie69 is offline
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hi ed....i included a link to some pics....they are of my forge and it fired up....the valve i show a pic of with the red handle......do u want it fully open?.....even when it is just opn enough to lite there is quite a big flame coming out.....fully open it is roaring and the flame coming out is huuuuge.....any advice would be appreciated....hope the pics work.....ohh and i know the inside of my forge could probably be smoother but that was the best i could do with the knowledge i have-hope it ain't that bad-this is my first time outta the gate .......ryan




http://knives1.shutterfly.com/ -u just have to scroll down a little to see th epics....ryan
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  #14  
Old 02-11-2009, 07:30 PM
cdent cdent is offline
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It's a little off topic, but if you don't need the full roar, you can also add a choke to the intake. It's basically a plate of scrap sheet metal that you can swing over the intake to lessen the air going in and giving you a tuning option as it doesn't look like your forge is very large in volume.

Just a thought, Craig
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  #15  
Old 02-11-2009, 07:35 PM
wookie69 wookie69 is offline
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craig...i appreciate the advice....i really don't know what the flame should be like....that's why i posed the pics....ryan
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