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  #106  
Old 08-12-2016, 11:50 AM
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Ron, Bill, thanks for the data. It is amazing the details that are revealed when people share info across chat lines instead of being purely confrontational. Thanks again. Small bits of data have a way of spilling over outside of the original subject... Regards.
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  #107  
Old 09-02-2016, 12:43 PM
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This is trivia about Solingen blades for Randall collectors. I carried a Solingen-14 S (stainless) blade in Vietnam and never could get a good edge on it. My twin brother got a Solingen-14 S while on his second tour after losing his Randall-14 ST. He could not get a good edge on it.

I currently have two Solingen-14 S blades that I cannot get a good edge on. So either the Solingen stainless blades are lousy for being sharp or they are so hard that they cannot be sharpened by standard field methods. But Solingen blades were used for m14s, m15s, m16s, m18s and especially m17s. Why especially m17s? Because if the stainless blades were used for m17s, I doubt they would have been acceptable for NASA except as an ax.

The m17 ordered by NASA were constructed using Solingen blades. These were all made of carbon steel, stamped on the ricasso, from the leftovers of the first batch of Solingen blades delivered to Randall in 1956 (Stainless Solingen was probably not available until after 1963). So... were the NASA Solingens as bad at edge holding as the stainless variety? What about the early Solingen-blade m15s, the early m18s with teeth, etc.?

I have a Solingen-14 carbon blade as well as the two Solingen-14 stainless blades. They are all well used so I couldn't hurt the knives. Therefore I decided to test putting an edge on them. I used the little sharpener shown that I got off E-bay for about $2.00(I was highly impressed with the sharpener/hone and have ordered four more for cheapo Christmas gifts). It has two grind slots, one for edge, one ceramic for hone.

Solingen-14s, carbon and stainless, pocket sharpener, file



Using the pocket sharpener/hone



Opening throat of sharpener because one of the Solingen-14s would bind...indicating the variability of the knives.



One of my Solingen-14 stainless blades would not quite fit into the slot of the little sharpener...The thickness of the blade above the bevel would bind on the plastic insert slot. So I carefully opened the plastic slot up with a file (see picture) until the knife would seat. I then sharpened and sharpend and honed and honed the three blades.

Results: both of the Solingen-14 stainless blades had a better edge after considerable work, but honestly, both were still pretty dull, ax-like. However, the Solingen-14 carbon blade took an edge like a champ, as good as the Randall-made carbon knives. And it has kept the razor sharp edge for some time, easily restored with a few quick swipes through the hone.

From this experiment, I conclude that the Solingen carbon blades were good quality steel knives with a solid edge holding characteristics. This is probably why they were acceptable to NASA in their m17 form and why Randall used them in the first place. However, the Solingen-stainless blades sucked at being turned into a sharp knife, at least with standard tools available to the user. I suspect the shop knew it but during Vietnam era they pretty much were just pushing products out the door.

I am going to try one more time to put a good edge on one of the Solingen-14 stainless blades. They were already attempted sharpened, scarred up some, so it will not further damage the blade. This time I'll use a very hard stone and a professional method. However I suspect the steel is not very good for the purpose of a knife.

Just another piece of data for collectors to put into the trivia book. Ciao.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 12:31 PM.
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  #108  
Old 09-02-2016, 06:26 PM
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My stainless Solingen 15 Airman takes quite a good edge, unlike your 14's. It will liberate hairs from my arm. I don't understand why there would be any difference between it and your 14's.
I wish I still had my stainless Solingen Model 18. My recollection is that it took a good edge and held it fairly well--BUT it was stolen many years ago, so I can't confirm this today.
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  #109  
Old 07-28-2017, 12:32 PM
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Another line restored. I just hope the rest of the hosting sites don't do the same thing.

Last edited by Jacknola; 08-12-2017 at 10:29 PM.
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  #110  
Old 07-28-2017, 05:45 PM
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Hi Jack!

Thanks very much for restoring all of your photos to this very informative thread!

I'm sure it is a tedious task, but it's very worthwhile and a great benefit to serious RMK collectors.

Cheers

David


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  #111  
Old 08-12-2017, 05:47 PM
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Well, I just had to have another m14 Vietnam era sawthooth knife...











Help me because I'm forgetful in my old age... do I already have some of these sawtooth thingees and don't m14s look pretty much alike?



Uhhhh... yes I do and yes they kinda do look alike... but there is an important difference (at least to me) in this one ...


Last edited by Jacknola; 08-13-2017 at 02:07 PM.
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  #112  
Old 08-12-2017, 07:41 PM
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Awesome pieces of Randall history Jack!
Is the important difference to you:
1) unmarked stainless?
2) carbon
3) escutcheon plate and or initials?
4) Handle material? The top two appear to be micarta, but your new one doesn't have that grainy look.

Regards, Sam

Last edited by samg; 08-12-2017 at 07:43 PM.
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  #113  
Old 08-12-2017, 07:46 PM
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Good eyes. The key is....Orlando sawteeth CARBON... other things are cool but this is unusual and fits a category. There are eight different Vietnam era riveted-sheath blade types

M14 Orlando stainless
M14 Orlando sawteeth stainless ✔️
M14 Orlando carbon ✔️✔️✔️
M14 Orlando sawteeth carbon ✔️

M14 Solingen stainless ✔️✔️
M14 Solingen sawteeth stainless ✔️
M14 Solingen carbon ✔️
M14 Solingen sawteeth carbon ✔️

Other options aren't blade related...maybe one day I'll get interested in other odd m14 handle types, Tenite, brown Micarta, etc.

Last edited by Jacknola; 08-17-2017 at 07:14 PM.
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  #114  
Old 08-22-2017, 06:42 PM
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I just received this and am pleased for a specific reason ... this is a Solingen-sawteeth-carbon blade.. which is not found very often for reasons that are apparent in pictures. Frankly carbon blades and Vietnam were not a good mix. But this particular Solingen-ST-carbon fills in a gap in my Vietnam era m14 accumulation.















The blade is actually very usable and is better condition than I thought from the sale pictures. Also the sheath is better after I used a toothbrush and saddle soap for about 15 mins removing the first layer of what looks like mold, but may be something else. The tie down flap is cut almost all the way through and there is a nick in the retaining strap, but the sheath is pretty solid.... see part of sheath in sale picture and after first pass with toothbrush-saddle soap. The back of this sheath shows tale-tell indication of a lot of serious heavy carry ... in adverse climate.



When I bought it, I had an idea to maybe send the blade to the shop for gentle touch up.. but I don't think so now after examining it. The pits in the pointy end and on the tang would probably polish out. But, near the hilt some of the pits are pretty deep and to polish them out would possibly remove the etched trademark and what remains of engraved message on obverse.

I'm thinking leave it alone, maybe hand polish Does anyone have an idea for un-blackening the damaged portion of the blade and cleaning out the pits already in blade? Semi chrome?

Last edited by Jacknola; 08-23-2017 at 03:44 PM.
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  #115  
Old 08-23-2017, 07:11 AM
crutchtip crutchtip is offline
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gonna try a post some photos of interesting 14's, including two carbon Solingen blades and one with Stainless and brown micarta. I never considered carbon blade 14's, Orlando or Solingen, particularly difficult to find. Plenty out there. Note the blade grind of the second photo. Some photos are old and not the best.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCN0750.JPG (173.9 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg Ran14teethnoteeth.jpg (88.7 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg 14 filled=2.JPG (54.8 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg Magnani.JPG (35.3 KB, 11 views)

Last edited by crutchtip; 08-23-2017 at 07:19 AM.
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  #116  
Old 08-23-2017, 10:43 AM
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I'm posting enlarged pictures of Joe's 14s. first is a Solingen-sawteeth-carbon like the blade I just received (Joe's is in much better condition) with a large throat tack rivet sheath, which is also cool. I don't think the end of the use of the large throat tack rivet has been firmly established.. if there is such a hard and fast date.. But I think ithose rivets were phased out t probably in early-mid 1965 or so. It would make an interesting study.



I particularly like the Solingen sawteeth grind ... here is a picture of one whose shape is especially pleasing to my eye. This one was carried by a Vietnam FAC pilot 1967-68 who later became an Assist. Sec. for Air Force, Manpower and Reserve, in the Bush Admin. It is in a museum.



This is the knife with the grind Joe referred to. It does have an odd grind, but doesn't look much like any of the sawteeth grinds, either Solingen or Orlando. It looks like it was a crypto model 1. Just about all 14s, 18s, with teeth had a more spear-point blade shape for a particular reason. - see comparisons and overlays earlier in this line. The grind shape is so different from other 14s. I'm not sure it was intended to have teeth because all the teethed 14s-18s seem to have a "swoop" top line creating the bevel for teeth, rather than a straight almost super-elongated clip like this one - where the logo may also have been effected. I wonder why?



Next Solingen-carbon blade, etched trademark which means they were delivered from Germany probably after mid-1963. Solingen carbon blades imported and used for 14s, 18s, both sawteeth and conventional grind ,numbered less than half the stainless variety. And I suspect more of the Solingen-carbon with the etched logo were earlier, 1963-4-5. Furthermore, the effects of rust and pitting must have reduced the number available today. It doesn't make them "rare," just not encountered very often. As I said earlier in this line, I was favorably impressed with the edge that could be put on a Solingen-carbon, whereas I couldn't get a good edge on 14 Solingen stainless.



I like this brown Macarta, filled hole Solingen... haven't seen this handle before. on a etched-logo Solly. I would have thought it would be more likely to have had a large tack rivet sheath, but goes to show that design parameters overlapped.





These are some cool old 14s and thanks for showing them.

Last edited by Jacknola; 08-23-2017 at 11:29 AM.
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  #117  
Old 08-23-2017, 01:54 PM
crutchtip crutchtip is offline
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Jack I don't know if that is the original sheath to the brown micarta. Things being what they are, particulalry the filled hole, I would think not, although they appear to be in similar condition. We have to remember, brown, black, and expoxied tenite were all available at the same time for a short period.

I have some more photos but challenged to resize and post full size.
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  #118  
Old 08-23-2017, 02:55 PM
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Yep, I can see that perhaps that sheath was later. Switch sheaths, with #1... all is good.?

I find it better to size the picture first before putting in on the host site. Here are the steps I use to resize the picture using "paint" as the re-size program. The nice thing is that if you are posting multiple pictures, you can make them all the same pixel width, making the presentation neater. First open the picture you want to re-size, then....












After the last step you put the pictures into your host site, copy the code and paste it into your forum post. I'm really happy with imgur.com. Easy to operate.

Last edited by Jacknola; 08-23-2017 at 03:16 PM.
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  #119  
Old 08-23-2017, 05:53 PM
crutchtip crutchtip is offline
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try this.

The knife with the 14 blade grind with teeth, similar to the one pictured above with no teeth. This is pretty rare with only a few I have see like this.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCN0649.JPG (169.1 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg !BTWqNBg!2k~$(KGrHgoH-CEEjlLl0F63BKI!D80Cbg~~_3[1].jpg (49.4 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg !BTKw!-w!mk~$(KGrHgoOKkMEjlLmYg(TBKHCdEp9tw~~_3[1].jpg (290.7 KB, 10 views)

Last edited by crutchtip; 08-23-2017 at 06:06 PM.
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  #120  
Old 08-24-2017, 09:42 AM
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Very unique Joe, thanks for sharing. Here are Joe's unusual grind 14s... one without teeth, one (or two?) with teeth.







This was not the grind that Gary Randall worked up in his famous experiment adding teeth to a Solingen for the prototype m18 in 1963. We know what that grind looked like from very early pictures, and that shape profile is still used today.

Briefly, the top line of a m14 is ground down to make a consistent uniform bevel to cut the teeth into. This requires a "swoop" line of stock removal from the spine of the knife blade. The beginning of the "swoop" stock removal is located to avoid impinging on the stamped logo. Absent this you will have a top line whose thickness varies the closer to the hilt you go, especially at the bottom of the sawtooth... This would make it difficult to uniformly cut teeth. Here is an example of the "swoop" line of stock removal from the spine to make a consistent bevel for teeth cutting.



Below is an example of what can happen when the top line is not ground properly. This m15 may have had teeth added later, or it could have been a marginal job at the shop because the top line wasn't beveled properly.



Therefore, I suspect these unusual grind knives were the product of an experiment, or more likely a new worker took it on himself to try this grind. I would guess Bill Platt set him straight because so few were made and just examining them would allow a conclusion about the difficulty of cutting consistent teeth.

Another possibility that can't be ignored is that the shop deliberately tried this grind to reduce time it took to shape the top line before teeth were added. If so, I would guess the difficulty in adding teeth caused this top line grind to be nixed pretty quickly.

Just about any Randall with a consistent top line bevel should be able to have saw teeth cut into it. That is why I created this fantasy m2... If the shop undertook making... say ... a 500 run of this m2 as a one-time special I think it would sell out rapidly. Does it have a practical use? Uhhh... not exactly, but at least it would make the m2 more flexible... you could use it to scale fish.


Last edited by Jacknola; 08-25-2017 at 09:48 AM.
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