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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #16  
Old 11-18-2016, 12:55 PM
gkyle840 gkyle840 is offline
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the flame is from a rosebud torch and it just doesnt particularly like being in the forge. it gets sputtery and the flame changes from orange to blue in the forge. I imagine its due to the airflow or constriction of. what I meant was the torch burns great but when I insert it into the forge it does not burn so well.

my oil is right next to the forge and I get the blade in there quickly. I will report back on overheating the blade and my results.
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  #17  
Old 11-18-2016, 02:10 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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A torch is designed to work in open air, a forge burner is designed to work in a contained volume. Most of the time these two devices do not interchange. You will have a hard time getting even heating out of a torch, or even enough heat for that matter. I moved my forge building DVD back to the top of the Newbies forum threads. Look over the first entry in that thread and see if it looks like it would help you ...


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  #18  
Old 11-18-2016, 03:21 PM
gkyle840 gkyle840 is offline
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thanks Ray, ill check it out and maybe I can order a copy and supplies to make it.
I have heat treated 5 pieces of the 1084 and I cant really tell much difference in the grain sizes of each one. I have been quenching them in 110 degree oil very quickly. if I have overheated the steel will it be more brittle or is there a point it will get softer? none of the pieces I have done seem overly brittle. the grain all looks the same meaning it is whitish looking under incandescent lighting, outside it has millions of tiny sparkles in the sun and magnified it looks grainy like my previous pics.
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  #19  
Old 11-18-2016, 05:44 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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The steel won't necessarily be more brittle if it overheats, depends on how far over it goes and what temperature it has when it hits the oil. Large grain growth may show up either way. Those grains aren't always the same substance..bainite, pearlite, austenite, martensite...and I'm sure many 'ites' I've never heard of. Depending on how much of each you may have the properties of the steel will be different. It is possible for the blade to be quite hard and hold an edge well but be too brittle for it to be of much practical use. To answer your question, yes, there is a point at which it will get softer due to the formation of the wrong type of structure. I can't say with certainty that is what's happening but since none of your steel seems to be getting as hard as it should be something isn't right and that probably means the temperature. Too high or too low I'm not sure yet but a rosebud torch could easily mean uneven heating to the point where part of the steel is non-mag while other parts remain too cool or get too hot ...

PS
Let's back up a bit. If you break your blade after HT and before tempering then it should bend very little and snap like glass. But, if you break it after tempering it can bend quite a lot before it snaps. Just trying to make sure we're on the same page ...


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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 11-18-2016 at 05:47 PM.
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  #20  
Old 11-18-2016, 06:22 PM
gkyle840 gkyle840 is offline
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Ok, so every HT so far I have been breaking it after the hardening and not tempering. The pieces of steel have all bent significantly before breaking.
The HT I just got done with, I heated it to non magnetic and kept it in the forge a minute longer. To my eyes it was an orangish yellow color. I thought for sure I had got it to hot like I was trying to do but when I broke it, it did not bend but broke more cleanly and the grains look finer than all of the previous. I am going to do another tonight and heat it for a minute and thirty seconds past nonmagnetic.
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  #21  
Old 11-18-2016, 06:39 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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"orangeis yello" ...colors are hard depending on the light it can be different also my orange might not be your orange....but it sound like in trying to over heat the blade you may have made it better....make sure you can repeat that do it exactly the same and make sure you get the same results, if you cant repeat it then you cant make another knife the same way and since we cant break every knife we have to be confident ....when I finally got it right I did the same HT for 3 coupons before I tried again on a blade. the temper softens up the hard steel so as ray said if your breaking before ht it shou;dnt bend at all....
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  #22  
Old 11-18-2016, 06:50 PM
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It sounds more and more like your rosebud isn't getting the job done correctly ...


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  #23  
Old 11-18-2016, 07:41 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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I told him that early one.....been there done that didn't work...got your video and did it right
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  #24  
Old 11-18-2016, 07:44 PM
gkyle840 gkyle840 is offline
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Ray, I can about guarantee you that my rosebud torch is not the right man for the job but its all I have for now. I am going to do some research on building a HT oven with PID controller and if that is too involved or expensive I plan to get your dvd and build a different forge and burner.
my end goal is to have a temp controlled oven so I can soak and do everything at the exact temp needed.

Dave, I plan to do another "coupon" tonight and try to get it even hotter. once I overheat one I will have a better idea where I need to stop heating at. I will then try and make 2 good coupons and then sharpen one and test it further. then I will HT my 2nd blade and sharpen it and test/break it.
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  #25  
Old 11-18-2016, 08:01 PM
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It's really hard to beat a PID controlled oven for heat treating. If you can do that then go for it.

If you can't do that right now, the point of my DVD is to show the noobs how to build a forge that really works for cheap. If you can scrounge a little you can get it done for $100 or less. To save even more, the DVD shows how you can build a gate valve and a blower, the two most expensive parts of a forced air forge, for nothing (if you can scrounge any kind of electric motor with at least a half hp)...


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  #26  
Old 11-18-2016, 08:27 PM
gkyle840 gkyle840 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WNC Goater View Post
This may be helpful for your grinding. As far as grain, I can't help you, as I don't know what to look for anyway. "Fine" could be very subjective. But I agree with Jim, that looks like small cracks in the upper left. Could be a result of the hammer strikes... again I should shut up as I said.

Anyway, helpful grinding tips:
https://sites.google.com/site/vorpal.../grinding-tips
Thanks! I remember seeing him on forged in fire. That site has some awesome tips for grinding!!
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  #27  
Old 11-18-2016, 11:16 PM
gkyle840 gkyle840 is offline
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Ray, once I good enough at grinding that I can get both sides even and my plunge doesn't look like I made it with a hacksaw while blindfolded I will spend some money on something to heat treat better. I used new belts tonight and my knife looks a little better than the first grind but it is still awful. I can't hold the blade on a consistent angle and the plunge looks to be at a different angle on each side and is very jagged. I'm going to keep at it though.
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  #28  
Old 11-19-2016, 08:40 AM
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Grinding does take a lot of practice but you will get there. As for the plunge cuts, the simplest way to get them done is to use a file guide. A file guide is nothing more than two small pieces of hardened steel, rectangular in shape, just long enough to reach across your blade with enough extra length to put a screw through each end to clamp it in place. With practice you won't even need that but for now it should solve your problem ...


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  #29  
Old 11-19-2016, 09:52 AM
gkyle840 gkyle840 is offline
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Thanks to Jeremy I do have a file guide! I was hoping to get a little more proficient with grinding before I put it on thinking it would last longer before I ground it up.
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  #30  
Old 11-19-2016, 10:20 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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I would just use it it will help with the pludge cuts and if its hardened steel it wont wear that quickly it relly should only butt up agenst the side of the belt and platen so it doesn't wear that much, I have made one from 1/8th in thick mild steel and its still good although I don't use it that much any more
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1084, angle, belt, blade, blades, brass, edge, first knife, grind, grinder, grinding, hammer, heat, heat treat, knife, make, metal, post, rod, sharp, tang, temper, throw, tiny, vise


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